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Intel saying "Bye to BIOS" by 2020.

 
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OldCheatEngineUser
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:17 pm    Post subject: Intel saying "Bye to BIOS" by 2020. Reply with quote

Intel: We're ending all legacy BIOS support by 2020

~

so what are we talking about? new conspiracy?
no realmode, no bios, no mbr, mandatory signed loader!

why intel being so dump, they signed a deal with microsoft for claiming intel 7th gen cannot run on windows 7 and it need VIRUS 10!.

now they talked to motherboard manufacturers to implement only crappy UEFI firmware.

that clearly says NO MORE CUSTOM OPERATING SYSTEMS.
or even worse pay to get your stuff signed to they can be loaded by the new hardware.

~

intel reached it peak, soon they will fall.
thats EOL.

~

i just cant understand why every company takes this route, THE BAD ROUTE.

most of them were good, but after some time they pray for devil.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiosity, what are you using that this would have any impact on you? This is aimed at new chips going forward, nothing that exists now will be affected. This is going to only affect future platforms. If you are buying a brand new Intel CPU later this year/next year, it is HIGHLY unlikely you are using anything in your system that would require a legacy bios.

Almost all GPUs have supported the newer requirement since around 2012. That is from the time the GTX 600 series was mainstream. At this point, there is no reason to not have a newer card or at least a 600 series. You can buy 800/900 series cards for dirt cheap at this point. (A GTX 970 is around $50 now.)

This is a move towards better security with the amount of vulnerabilities that are being found in CPUs now due to old legacy junk being still supported.

I also hate Windows 10, and am disappointed there is a joint agreement between Microsoft and Intel to cut support for their older OS's when they are still considered valid and supported. However, Windows 7 is dead now in the sense of it's end of life was Jan 14, 2020. It is understandable for Intel to not care/need to continue supporting it with their newer chips. Windows 8/8.1 are still active though, and the fact that those are not supported is a bit stupid.

There are ways to force Windows 7/8/8.1 support on newer hardware but you are left using previous-gen drivers which are not guaranteed to be stable and are obviously not supported anymore. You can also bypass the newer Windows Update hardware checks to keep using 'unsupported hardware' etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atom0s wrote:
Out of curiosity, what are you using that this would have any impact on you?
...
it is HIGHLY unlikely you are using anything in your system that would require a legacy bios.


yes it does, because im into OS development. (for many purposes, but mainly personal)

you may say: you can use VM.
yes true, but should i use VM for the rest of my journey?
of course not, i want it be boot-able from real hardware.

deprecating bios means i have to do efi programming to access i/o ports, video memory (uefi graphic output protocol ----- assuming no bios support means no vga memory), have to use GPT partition .. and much more.

and you probably know efi programming is no fun, and not as easy as it sounds.

~

im still using windows 7 as main development platform, but this doesnt mean im not using other OSes that use legacy bios.

~

and you know OS programming take years, it is the slowest software development.

i know i still have time to backup-hardware, maybe buying new and old ones, but thats costy as well. (honestly im on budget so..)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldCheatEngineUser wrote:
atom0s wrote:
Out of curiosity, what are you using that this would have any impact on you?
...
it is HIGHLY unlikely you are using anything in your system that would require a legacy bios.


yes it does, because im into OS development. (for many purposes, but mainly personal)


My second sentence you quoted is if you are buying new hardware after this change goes into effect. Not with your current hardware/setup. This is not a change that will affect any current hardware/setups. This will only affect the new CPUs they make that enforce this and have no CSM support.

OldCheatEngineUser wrote:

you may say: you can use VM.
yes true, but should i use VM for the rest of my journey?
of course not, i want it be boot-able from real hardware.


VM for development isn't a bad idea for something you need to be constantly booting/rebooting to test. As for real-hardware, every other OS is going to have to follow suit, there isn't going to be special cases for things like Linux, Windows, MacOS, etc. everyone will have to have UEFI going forward. So there is no reason for them to make any type of exceptions for others. The whole goal of this is to remove security holes in things that are and have been deprecated for a while.

At this point most systems already avoid CSM altogether and often have it disabled by default, UEFI has been the default for a while. All the vendors from hardware to OS's have already started making the change to support UEFI, and in some cases full-on dropping legacy support (such as video cards).

OldCheatEngineUser wrote:

deprecating bios means i have to do efi programming to access i/o ports, video memory (uefi graphic output protocol ----- assuming no bios support means no vga memory), have to use GPT partition .. and much more.

and you probably know efi programming is no fun, and not as easy as it sounds.


Yeah, it sucks having to basically start over on your bios handling/support, but it's not only you that it is affecting.
This has a greater purpose for happening other than a 'just for fun' type change.

Intel has been constantly hit with tons of security vulnerabilities over the last handful of years and their current focus going forward is to try and close as many of those holes as possible and secure their platform again. Especially with how the CPU market space has gotten with AMD being the leader of the pack currently.

OldCheatEngineUser wrote:

im still using windows 7 as main development platform, but this doesnt mean im not using other OSes that use legacy bios.


As already pointed out, Win7 is EOL now. So there is no obligation for Intel, Microsoft, or any hardware/software vendor to go out of their way to support it. Microsoft gives ample time for people to know when their OS is going to be discontinued and no longer supported. It is entirely on you if you choose to stay on that OS past its life. But it is not their responsibility to make sure other people's stuff continues to work.

OldCheatEngineUser wrote:

i know i still have time to backup-hardware, maybe buying new and old ones, but thats costy as well. (honestly im on budget so..)


Like I said, this won't affect your current setup, so there is no need to rush out and buy new stuff.
You can keep using Win7 and focusing on legacy bios support in your OS. It just won't work with future Intel chips.


Sorry if it comes off as me being defensive for Intel like I love them or something, I don't. I use AMD personally anyway. (Ryzon 9 3950X atm.) I just understand their reasoning for doing this as it makes sense going forward to remove as much 'junk' as possible that they don't need to keep around. This is just one of the layers being announced to be stripped first. They have a lot more that will more than likely be removed/heavily altered in the future too due to the vulnerabilities that have happened over the years.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

atom0s wrote:
This will only affect the new CPUs they make that enforce this and have no CSM support.


yes, but why not leaving it as a disabled option that can be manually toggled based on the user needs? - instead of removing it completely.

atom0s wrote:
every other OS is going to have to follow suit, there isn't going to be special cases for things like Linux, Windows, MacOS, etc.
...
The whole goal of this is to remove security holes in things that are and have been deprecated for a while.


yes big vendors are definitely going to fully support that, and the #1 reason is security thats true and i fully understand that.
but there are always OPTIONS, like many. (lets say allowing us to flash the eeprom or maybe having a motherboard extension)

atom0s wrote:
Intel has been constantly hit with tons of security vulnerabilities over the last handful of years and their current focus going forward is to try and close as many of those holes as possible and secure their platform again.


thats true, bugs, vulnerabilities, and ... backdoors?
but why intel chips?
many old cpu manufacturers had better chips in terms of security, so again why intel chips? there are 3rd party deals obviously.

but that design is their bad, not the world wide end users. true?

~

you are not being defensive, that is the truth.
and i agree on removing/deprecating some stuff, but not FORCING UEFI, thats the whole point.

they can purge their chips, but a least leave protected mode, long mode is no real 64-bit.. it still miss few 64-bit features.
just like an early access game being released.

OldCheatEngineUser wrote:
they can purge their chips


i understand that redesigning costs a lot, intel have the most complex architecture in history maybe.
this is also a good reason for deprecating old things, due to costs, time, cash, and their fault for their poor design.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldCheatEngineUser wrote:

yes, but why not leaving it as a disabled option that can be manually toggled based on the user needs? - instead of removing it completely.


That defeats the purpose of fixing the security holes involved with it. Just disabling it doesn't fix them, it leaves them there. Not all attacks involve remote hacking as well, having physical access to a machine that has the vulnerability still is a security risk even if it's off by default.

Because of how CSM support within UEFI works there is a large gap in security to allow loading the needed information that is all unsigned and vulnerable to attacks in general. Those attacks don't just affect one or the other setup either and can be used to exploit a machine in a lot of different ways. Most of the CVE fixes over the years for these kinds of exploits/vulns as well are just bandaids on top of a layer that shouldn't exist at all, to begin with.

OldCheatEngineUser wrote:

yes big vendors are definitely going to fully support that, and the #1 reason is security thats true and i fully understand that.
but there are always OPTIONS, like many. (lets say allowing us to flash the eeprom or maybe having a motherboard extension)


One compromise they have made with this is that Intel, itself, is not enforcing SecureBoot to be enabled. They are still leaving it as an optional thing that motherboard and OS vendors can decide on. That means you can still boot unsigned OS's with this new change. It'll still require UEFI support and all, but at least it does not require signing.

OldCheatEngineUser wrote:

thats true, bugs, vulnerabilities, and ... backdoors?
but why intel chips?


Intel had the large part of the market share until this past year when AMD hit back with the newer Ryzen lineup. So Intel had the most value in being targeted for attacks. Once hardware-level vulnerabilities like Meltdown and Spectre happened, it set things in motion for researches to focus more on attacking hardware directly. The way Intel and AMD make their chips is different as well, in terms of how all the parts of the CPU interact and communicate. For example, Intel was HUGELY affected by Meltdown and Spectre. Because of how AMD processors are made, they weren't affected as badly by Spectre and were not affected at all by Meltdown.

This has caused Intel to have to literally redo how their processors are made entirely. As seen with Spectre, fixing the branch prediction issues was a large performance hit to the affected processors.

But, those were just the start of the issues to come. The biggest issue and probably the reason for this change entirely is the newer targeted vulns that cause the trust layer to be completely broken with the CPU which targets the CSME layer. As I mentioned above this is a physical access based attack, which can be a huge security concern for data centers and other high-profile locations. (See CVE for this here: https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2019-0090 And Intels list/writeup here: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/security-center/advisory/intel-sa-00213.html )

While it may not directly affect you as a home user, the security issues with these kinds of vulns. are huge. AMD would do the same thing if they were affected by this as well. But they aren't vulnerable to the same things as Intel because they are manufactured differently.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we cant link spectre and meltdown to the firmware, they are mainly hardware architecture design, meltdown may be patched logically by software while spectre not.

there is a trade off, segmented memory vs flat memory models.
segmented memory may be complex for both operating system and compiler developers but it offer better security. (again for meltdown)

also spectre and meltdown are not the only hardware bugs that can be trigger by malicious software, there are more hardware bugs affected by software.

both bios and uefi are firmware, how many serious firmware bugs we have in PERSONAL COMPUTERS? - few maybe.

what about (these may and moy not have direct affection on PCs) internet routers, telecommunication services have more serious firmware bugs than PCs.

so i would say its a deal, or conspiracy. but this is not something new.
false-positive claims, and pointless conferences .. none of us know the exact reason nor we know what comes next, but i bet its a game.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me mentioning Meltdown/Spectre and similar were just in regards to why Intel is being hammered and jumping to make changes in general, not specifically towards the bios directly.

I wouldn't doubt that there are some types of deals/incentives behind the scenes to help push towards changes like this from Microsoft with Windows 10, but I don't think its the sole reason Intel is moving forward with something like this. I'd lean more towards it still being security-focused. (Intel and MS have both been found in the past incentivizing vendors/OEMs to push their products to beat out the competition and such.)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't really an issue for me personally, the company's can do what they want i really don't care honestly but if it affect's you then why don't you learn how to make your own Hardware for your system? That's the only logical thing to do if you want it to do what you need it to do, no i don't do anything to do with Operating System's but it would only seem logical as said to do that. If i'm wrong please let me know as i can't make a OS nor do i think it is easy.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This doesn't actually effect anyone in any sort of negative way, it's for your security and performance... It's only going to improve that!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One benefit of the old BIOS was that nobody could fingerprint the system.
Now, with UEFI more or less anyone can permanently identify your system and you have no say in it. Formatting, reset, nothing will help.
I wonder what the EU will have to say about that.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:58 am    Post subject: same prob Reply with quote

Without bios how hp will maintain their integrated finger print technology?. Before it was like if I even remove the hdd and change into a new one my hp laptop still asks for finger print and it is really awesome but without bios how they will maintain it?.
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