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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
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 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: | | greatsage wrote: | | HackOtaku wrote: | | So what you're saying is "I'm right, you're wrong, because I'm right?" How about backing yourself up with logic and reason instead of saying "you don't know ". |
already did. good job doing exactly as i said.
and good job continuing to misrepresent others. i guess you're just autistic. i wouldn't want to be married to someone who didn't understand the individuality of others, either. |
lmfao. You don't provide any points, you don't attempt to prove yourself, you can't formulate proper arguments so you settle for personal attacks instead. Where did you "already " back yourself up? All I see you doing is saying you know what is right without providing any "citations ", meanwhile I am saying what your books are saying about this dude's life as my argument, which you say is wrong without offering anything tangible. I'm inclined to think you're just trolling, but its likely you're just autistic/"neurodivergent". |
you are the only one guilty of this. the only reason you are ignoring my points is because you are a child, of course you're not going to see what you don't want to see.
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HackOtaku
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| What is your point? Your argument is " she was ~15 in badr hurr durr "? Care to provide some kind of proof for this, or am I just to take your word? I claim she was 9 when he had sex with her, and I am backed up by one of your books. What is backing you up?
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: | | What is your point? Your argument is " she was ~15 in badr hurr durr "? Care to provide some kind of proof for this, or am I just to take your word? I claim she was 9 when he had sex with her, and I am backed up by one of your books. What is backing you up? |
except you aren't. maybe take a second to not dismiss mountains of evidence, by reading and getting in touch with reality.
it really is sad that you would fight the truth this much just to bring an unfounded delusion about rape.
because you have nothing against him beyond your own lies. l0l, it really sucks to be you.
may Allah withhold His mercy from the liars who smear His Word.
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HackOtaku
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| greatsage wrote: | | HackOtaku wrote: | | What is your point? Your argument is " she was ~15 in badr hurr durr "? Care to provide some kind of proof for this, or am I just to take your word? I claim she was 9 when he had sex with her, and I am backed up by one of your books. What is backing you up? |
except you aren't. maybe take a second to not dismiss mountains of evidence, by reading and getting in touch with reality.
it really is sad that you would fight the truth this much just to bring an unfounded delusion about rape.
because you have nothing against him beyond your own lies. l0l, it really sucks to be you.
may Allah withhold His mercy from the liars who smear His Word. |
I never accused anyone of rape, don't put words in my mouth. And you are yet again claiming I am "just wrong" and have completely failed to actually make an argument that is backed up by anything other than you saying "I'm right". You claim your books don't back up what I think, and yet:
| Quote: | | That the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." What you know of the Quran (by heart)' |
source:
http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_7_62.php
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
| Quote: | | 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him. |
source:
http://www.2muslims.com/directory/hadith/muslim/8/3309/
| Quote: | 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (May peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
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source:
http://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/136-Sahih%20Muslim%20Book%2008.%20Marriage/11407-sahih-muslim-book-008-hadith-number-3311.html
It's not like I'm the one trying to push this image that he married a child, I am just taking the hadiths as being true. Why are you so insistent on trying to change Muhammad's history to fit western morals? I don't think Allah would like that too much.
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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^
shows exactly how much of an ostrich he is.
good job using something to show you deliberately ignore rebuttals because you are well aware you stand without substance. no point in reiterating when you will ignore evidence regardless. which is what you are showing yourself to do.
again, too, you show that you have no idea what a hadith is
thanks for proving everything i said to be correct.
aisha was 19 @ nikah. fact with dozens of sources.
by the way, it is you who is "twisting versus morals"; obviously a person of perfect calibre will apply perfectly to any morals. an unfortunately, western morals do not prohibit marrying at that age. too bad, he married someone 2x the age you claim.
please continue insisting that a 4 year old could marry and do pilgrimage. lmfao
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HackOtaku
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| greatsage wrote: | ^
shows exactly how much of an ostrich he is.
good job using something to show you deliberately ignore rebuttals because you are well aware you stand without substance. no point in reiterating when you will ignore evidence regardless. which is what you are showing yourself to do.
again, too, you show that you have no idea what a hadith is
thanks for proving everything i said to be correct.
aisha was 19 @ nikah. fact with dozens of sources.
by the way, it is you who is "twisting versus morals"; obviously a person of perfect calibre will apply perfectly to any morals. an unfortunately, western morals do not prohibit marrying at that age. too bad, he married someone 2x the age you claim.
please continue insisting that a 4 year old could marry and do pilgrimage. lmfao |
[1]citation needed
I don't even know what you're talking about with 4 year olds, I'm actually pretty convinced you have severe mental problems. seek help.
Last edited by HackOtaku on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: | | greatsage wrote: | ^
shows exactly how much of an ostrich he is.
good job using something to show you deliberately ignore rebuttals because you are well aware you stand without substance. no point in reiterating when you will ignore evidence regardless. which is what you are showing yourself to do.
again, too, you show that you have no idea what a hadith is
thanks for proving everything i said to be correct.
aisha was 19 @ nikah. fact with dozens of sources.
by the way, it is you who is "twisting versus morals"; obviously a person of perfect calibre will apply perfectly to any morals. an unfortunately, western morals do not prohibit marrying at that age. too bad, he married someone 2x the age you claim.
please continue insisting that a 4 year old could marry and do pilgrimage. lmfao |
[1]citation needed |
already cited. gj ostrich
“Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the last Day, and remembereth Allah much.” [Quran 33:21]
That is the words of God describing the nobleness of Prophet Muhammad. Even a non-believer such as Sir George Bernard dawn in his book ‘The Genuine Islam,’ Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936 wrote that if there is a new religion that will prevail in England or Europe in the next century that would be Islam. Muhammad is a wonderful man and should be called the Savior of Humanity, said Bernard dawn.
Mahatma Gandhi, in his statement that published in “Young India” in 1024 said that it is not the sword that spread Islam. But the passion, courage, and faith of the prophet Muhammad to God that spread Islam. When I have read the second chapter of the story of Prophet Muhammad, I was regret that there is no more to read.
Muhammad was impossible to spread Islam by the sword since his early followers were only his wife and nephew, Ali. Later, many people convert to Islam because of his great personality and the Islamic truth.
If there were some wars, those were defensive wars. The first 3 wars, such as Badar, Uhud, and Khandaq wars, happened near Madinah city, the Muslim city, when the Mecca infidels and their allies attacked Madinah.
So was the Mu’tah war happened in Arab land when the Christian Roman Empire attacked to destroy Islam.
Michael H Hart in his book ‘The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,’ New York, 1978 chose prophet Muhammad as the number 1 among 100 most influential people in the world defeating Isaac Newton, Paul, and Jesus.
According to Michael H Hart, most great leaders in his book became great because they happened to be born in developed countries and center of the world civilization such as France, Germany, Britain, etc. Even without those leaders, those countries will be great anyway and many men could replace their places as leaders.
For example, Napoleon Bonaparte that lead France to conquer Europe. That happened because France is a big European country. Napoleon could not do that if France is a small country. Even Napoleon at last failed and died in exile.
Jesus though the first who spread Christian religion, but he was caught and crossed by the Roman soldiers. His followers when Jesus died were a few. It is Paul who developed the Christian religion so it is accepted by European.
On the contrary, Prophet Muhammad was born in a backward country. Mecca, the city where Muhammad was born, is a small city far away from the centre of civilization, trade, art, and science. At that time the great countries are Roman, Persian, and China.
Arab is nothing but a Roman and Persian colony with a very small population until now. Arab people were divided into small tribes that fight each other.
When Muhammad was born, most Arab worshipped idols. For the first 3 years Muhammad call his family and close friends to Islam. Then in 613 Muhammad propagated Islam openly so Islam spreading wide.
The Mecca Infidel leaders began to think Muhammad as a threat to their belief so they tried to kill him. To avoid the danger, Muhammad went to Madinah. But the Mecca infidels did not stop. They try to attack Muhammad in Madinah 3 times in Badar, Uhud, and Khandaq wars. But they failed.
After that, Muhammad and his followers conquered Mecca peacefully in 630. There is no home to be destroyed and no bloodshed except for a few war criminals. In 23 years Muhammad united all Arab and also other tribes in Islam.
With Muhammad leadership, Arab not only could hold the Roman and Persian attack but also conquered them all. Until now the Roman capital, Constantinople becomes Istambul under Islamic country. So is Baghdad that used to be the capital of Persian Empire.
We should remember that the prophet Muhammad’s wars are not bloody wars like the crusaders that slaughtered all Muslims they conquered like in the film ”Kingdom of Heaven” (Starred by Orlando Bloom). The wars by Muhammad such as in Badar, Uhud, and Khandaq Wars are defensive wars. They defend themselves from the Infidels’ attacks. The war with Roman and Persian were setting the people free from Roman and Persian’s occupation which burden the people with heavy taxes.
At the Conquer of Mecca, it is a peaceful surrender. Almost no bloodshed.
In 100 years since the death of Prophet Muhammad, Islamic Kingdom spread from India, Pakistan, Iran, Middle East, North Africa, to Spain with 7,600 kilometeres long and 3,200 kilometres wide in 3 continents! It is the largest empire that ever exists in the history.
Even though the Spain reconquered by the Catholic after 7 centuries, yet Islam still prevail in North Africa, Middle East, Iran, and Pakistan.
Islam not only advance in politics and military. In science the Arabs who used to be backward below the Greece and Persian scientists, suddenly became leaders. Many scientific findings by Arab/Islamic scientists acknowledge by the world until now.
For example, the world numeric system now called Arabic Numeral replacing the Roman Numeral which is not flexible. With Arabic Numerals, you could write 93,567,834,234,693 easily. That kind of number is impossible written with Roman Numeric.
In Microsoft Encarta Encylopaedia mentioned:
===
The Islamic world, which in medieval times extended as far west as Spain, also produced many scientific breakthroughs. The Arab mathematician Muhammad al-Khwārizmī introduced Hindu-Arabic numerals to Europe many centuries after they had been devised in southern Asia.
===
Arab Astronomers (read: Islam Astronomers) find many stars such as Aldebaran, Altair, and Deneb. Al Haytham (Alhacen) that introduced Optic science also found Scientific Method which emphasized Observation, Experiment, and accurate records.
Thus, Muhammad is not just a religious leader or prophet. But he also a military leader, the head of Islamic State (which is superior to Roman and Persian Empire), and also the founder of Islamic Science Golden Age.
In 23 years only, Muhammad managed to turn the backward savage Arabs into civilized people and the leaders in science defeating 2 world super powers: Roman and Persian. This is an example that should be followed by any leaders!
No wonder a non Muslim like Michael H Hart acknowledged that Muhammad is the number one people in the world beyond Jesus and any other men that ever exist.
If a non Muslim thought Muhammad is the number one, then a Muslim that testifies Muhammad as the messenger of God should also know that Muhammad is a perfect man that free from sin or error. That is why Muslims should learn the story of Muhammad and follow his examples.
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HackOtaku
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I get you're trying to make an argument about the age of this little girl, but you forget the part where you make an argument about the age of this little girl.
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: |
I don't even know what you're talking about with 4 year olds, I'm actually pretty convinced you have severe mental problems. seek help. |
THAT IS BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT!!!
and yet as an ignorant imbecile you still continue to make claims on a subject that you are UNFAMILIAR OF!
AISHA WAS MARRIED 5 YEARS BEFORE MARRYING AGAIN. SHE WAS A VIRGIN AT TIME OF MARRIAGE AGAIN.
you are claiming consummation 2 years after marriage at 7. so consummation at 9. conservatively you are insisting a 4 year old got marriage and committed pilgrimage! even though your real claim would be that she was 2 years old!!
this is how stupid you are. and this is how uneducated you are!
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HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| greatsage wrote: | | HackOtaku wrote: |
I don't even know what you're talking about with 4 year olds, I'm actually pretty convinced you have severe mental problems. seek help. |
THAT IS BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT!!!
and yet as an ignorant imbecile you still continue to make claims on a subject that you are UNFAMILIAR OF!
AISHA WAS MARRIED 5 YEARS BEFORE MARRYING AGAIN. SHE WAS A VIRGIN AT TIME OF MARRIAGE AGAIN.
you are claiming consummation 2 years after marriage at 7. so consummation at 9. conservatively you are insisting a 4 year old got marriage and committed pilgrimage! even though your real claim would be that she was 2 years old!!
this is how stupid you are. and this is how uneducated you are! |
[1] citation needed
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| HackOtaku wrote: | | greatsage wrote: | | HackOtaku wrote: |
I don't even know what you're talking about with 4 year olds, I'm actually pretty convinced you have severe mental problems. seek help. |
THAT IS BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT!!!
and yet as an ignorant imbecile you still continue to make claims on a subject that you are UNFAMILIAR OF!
AISHA WAS MARRIED 5 YEARS BEFORE MARRYING AGAIN. SHE WAS A VIRGIN AT TIME OF MARRIAGE AGAIN.
you are claiming consummation 2 years after marriage at 7. so consummation at 9. conservatively you are insisting a 4 year old got marriage and committed pilgrimage! even though your real claim would be that she was 2 years old!!
this is how stupid you are. and this is how uneducated you are! |
[1] citation needed |
[Tabari] Hazrat Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre-Islamic period, said to have ended in 610 CE.
[Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb]&[Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah] Hazrat Asma died in the 73rd year after migration when she was 100 years old. If Hazrat Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27/28 years old at the time of migration. If Hazrat Asma was 27/28 years old at the time of hijrah, Hazrat Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Hazrat Aisha -- if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH -- was between 18-20 years old at the time of her marriage.
[Tabari] Hazrat Abu Bakr, to spare Hazrat Aisha discomforts of journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, via marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused as Hazrat Abu Bakr had converted to Islam.
[Kitaab al-Tafseer] Hazrat Aisha is reported to have said at the time of Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an, was revealed, “I was a young girl”.
The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Hazrat Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. Unlike Justin, I will assume that a girl is different than a woman, so she is assumed to be 7 to 14 years, and then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.
if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.
in fact, that is 7 years... so she would have been trying to go to ethiopia and get married at the age of 7 before she was even able to walk according to you.
good job.
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HackOtaku
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| greatsage wrote: |
[Tabari] Hazrat Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre-Islamic period, said to have ended in 610 CE.
[Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb]&[Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah] Hazrat Asma died in the 73rd year after migration when she was 100 years old. If Hazrat Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27/28 years old at the time of migration. If Hazrat Asma was 27/28 years old at the time of hijrah, Hazrat Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Hazrat Aisha -- if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH -- was between 18-20 years old at the time of her marriage.
[Tabari] Hazrat Abu Bakr, to spare Hazrat Aisha discomforts of journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, via marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused as Hazrat Abu Bakr had converted to Islam.
[Kitaab al-Tafseer] Hazrat Aisha is reported to have said at the time of Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an, was revealed, “I was a young girl”.
The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Hazrat Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. Unlike Justin, I will assume that a girl is different than a woman, so she is assumed to be 7 to 14 years, and then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.
if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.
in fact, that is 7 years... so she would have been trying to go to ethiopia and get married at the age of 7 before she was even able to walk according to you.
good job. |
For the record, I want to say this is the first time in this thread you have actually offered anything as a form of argument, but I would like to thank you for doing so. Now I will offer a counter:
In regards to Tabari:
| Quote: |
[Tabari] Hazrat Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre-Islamic period, said to have ended in 610 CE.
[Tabari] Hazrat Abu Bakr, to spare Hazrat Aisha discomforts of journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, via marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused as Hazrat Abu Bakr had converted to Islam. |
For starters, I'm not entirely sure why you're using Tabari as an argument in the first place, but if you assume its credibility (which I assume you do, because otherwise why use it as a base of argument to begin with). However, Tabari also reported the claim of her young age.
Source:
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic1094745.files/Tabari%20Vol%207-8.pdf
Specifically, pages 6/7: | Quote: | | "He had married her in Mecca 3 years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadijah. At the time she was six, or according to some accounts, seven years old" |
So, regardless of what point you are attempting to make, your source of information is already backing up her young age. You also haven't thrown out any exact passages (which I had done for you in my claims), instead just saying "Tabari".
If there is a quote by him somewhere in which he claims that " Hazrat Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre-Islamic period, said to have ended in 610 CE.", then he has contradicted himself in his own record of history. It's not a surprise that this has happened, since Tabari is not meant to be taken as an authentic source anyway.
| Quote: | | I shall likewise mention those (narrators) who came after them, giving additional information about them. I do this so that it can be clarified whose transmission (of traditions) is praised and whose information is transmitted, whose transmission is to be rejected and whose transmission is to be disregarded…The reader should know that with respect to all I have mentioned and made it a condition to set down in this book of mine, I rely upon traditions and reports which have been transmitted and which I attribute to their transmitters. I rely only very rarely upon (my own) rationality and internal thought processes. For no knowledge of the history of men of the past and of recent men and events is attainable by those who were not able to observe them and did not live in their time, except through information and transmission produced by informants and transmitters. This knowledge cannot be brought out by reason or produced by internal thought processes. This book of mine may contain some information mentioned by me on the authority of certain men of the past, which the reader may disapprove of and the listener may find detestable, because he can find nothing sound and no real meaning in it. In such cases, he should know that it is not my fault that such information comes to him, but the fault of someone who transmitted it to me. |
-- From an introduction to a book by Tabari.
Tabari himself admits that he is essentially just a historian, he is just making a collection of narrations, and knows that some are true and some are false, as has no interest in trying to discern between them. Instead, he is just relaying things that have been said, so to use him as a source for an argument seems unsound to me.
| Quote: | [Kitaab al-Tafseer] Hazrat Aisha is reported to have said at the time of Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an, was revealed, “I was a young girl”.
The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Hazrat Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. Unlike Justin, I will assume that a girl is different than a woman, so she is assumed to be 7 to 14 years, and then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21. |
This is a strange argument. So, we have Aisha claiming "I was a young girl" when the 54th Surah was 'revealed'. Followed up by an assertation that it was 9 years before Hijrah that it was revealed, added to a "rough" guess of what the age of "young girl" means in this context in order to throw some math together to make a point. Where is your evidence that 9 years prior to Hijrah is when the 54th was revealed? So far as I can tell, there is no agreed claim of a definite year that it was revealed. If there is one, please provide evidence.
Contradictory information which seems to imply it was 5 years prior instead of 9 :
| Quote: | The incident of the shaqq-al-Qamar (splitting of the moon) that has been mentioned in it, determines its period of revelation precisely. The traditionists and commentators are agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's hijrah to Madinah.
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Source: http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/maududi/introductions/mau-54.php
Furthermore, you're just throwing out the ages 7-14 as being the meaning of "young girl". You seem to imply because she said she was a young girl (apparently the word is jariyah) instead of saying she was an infant (apparently sibyah) she must have been at least 7? By this logic, 2-3 year olds (who we typically call toddlers) are still "infants" to you, as are 4, 5, and 6 year olds. From my frame of reference, this is a very weak argument. A two or three year old is still a "young girl", or a girl who has not reached puberty but is no longer and infant, which seems to be the message that is being conveyed.
Your entire basis for getting the numbers needed to get that figure comes from major assumptions based on the phrase "young girl" and an uncertain number of years before Hijrah that the revelation was given to. I could just as easily say that the claim of 5 years is correct, and that a 3 year old is not an infant girl, and boom, Aisha is 6/7 when she got married, but I feel like you would (and should) immediately take offense to me making bold assumptions from unclear narratives to try to make a point, and this is the reason why I can't take the one you're pushing forward as honest.
If I am wrong, prove me wrong with logic and sources instead of shouting "You're ignorant", by the way
| Quote: | if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.
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Arguments from Tabari though, who is knowingly unreliable.
| Quote: | | [Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb]&[Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah] Hazrat Asma died in the 73rd year after migration when she was 100 years old. If Hazrat Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27/28 years old at the time of migration. If Hazrat Asma was 27/28 years old at the time of hijrah, Hazrat Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Hazrat Aisha -- if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH -- was between 18-20 years old at the time of her marriage |
See, in this instance, I have nothing myself to prove this wrong, but I have found an article against that exact argument that probably does a better job refuting it than I could:
| Quote: | Ibn Kathir based himself on Ibn Abi al-Zinad's assertion that she was ten years older than `A'isha, however, al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' said there was a greater difference than 10 years between the two, up to 19, and he is more reliable here
Ibn Hajar reports in al-Isaba from Hisham ibn `Urwa, from his father, that Asma' did live 100 years, and from Abu Nu`aym al-Asbahani that "Asma' bint Abi Bakr was born 27 years before the Hijra, and she lived until the beginning of the year 74." None of this amounts to any proof for `A'isha's age whatsoever.
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Now, I can't say for myself the credibility of what's being said here, I don't know if Al-Dhahabi is more credible than Ibn Kathir, that's something you'd know better than I, but if it is so, and these details are true, then there isn't a strong link between their age difference actually being 10. I will say, I can't say for sure that the age difference isn't 10, so it may also be so. This is the best argument you've had yet, but the issue is its uncertainty mixed with the fact that it is one person's claim of age (via age difference calculations) against direct claims of age by "authentic" sources, so it comes down to the individual to figure out reliability of information.
Here's the biggest question I have for you: If you are a Sunni muslim, and you believe that Sahih al-Bukhari is the most authentic source for hadith, and that Sahih Muslim is the second most authentic source for them. (And I only assume these things based on what I know of muslim faith, you never confirmed you were Sunni anyway), why would you use "lesser" forms of information about his life in order to attempt to refute the claims made by these books?
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
Reputation: 13
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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and forever a laughingstock you will be; a shade darker than all shadows as a blot of ignorance.
| HackOtaku wrote: |
| Quote: |
[Tabari] Hazrat Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre-Islamic period, said to have ended in 610 CE.
[Tabari] Hazrat Abu Bakr, to spare Hazrat Aisha discomforts of journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, via marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused as Hazrat Abu Bakr had converted to Islam. |
| Quote: | [Kitaab al-Tafseer] Hazrat Aisha is reported to have said at the time of Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an, was revealed, “I was a young girl”.
The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Hazrat Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. Unlike Justin, I will assume that a girl is different than a woman, so she is assumed to be 7 to 14 years, and then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21. |
This is a strange argument. So, we have Aisha claiming "I was a young girl" when the 54th Surah was 'revealed'. Followed up by an assertation that it was 9 years before Hijrah that it was revealed, added to a "rough" guess of what the age of "young girl" means in this context in order to throw some math together to make a point. Where is your evidence that 9 years prior to Hijrah is when the 54th was revealed? So far as I can tell, there is no agreed claim of a definite year that it was revealed. If there is one, please provide evidence. |
| Quote: |
from the first to the fifth year of Mohammed's mission
96, 74, 111, 106, 108, 104, 107, 102, 105, 92,
90, 94, 93, 97, 86, 91, 80, 68, 87, 95,
103, 85, 73, 101, 99, 82, 81, 53, 84, 100,
79, 77, 78, 88, 89, 75, 83, 69, 51, 52,
56, 70, 55, 112, 109, 113, 114, 1
the fifth and sixth year of his mission:
54, 37, 71, 76, 44, 50, 20, 26, 15, 19,
38, 36, 43, 72, 67, 23, 21, 25, 17, 27, 18
from the seventh year to Hijra:
32, 41, 45, 16, 30, 11, 14, 12, 40, 28,
39, 29, 31, 42, 10, 34, 35, 7, 46, 6, 13 |
614 = young girl. that is 8 years prior to 622. it would have been years before hijrah. you are only showing how ignorant you are of every single topic you speak of.
this alone is evidence to suffice that you are incredulous. but we have always known. otherwise you're insisting a 1 year old can understand arabic when you could never. especially of the qur'an, which none of this has any foundation is, and entirely refutes; something you constantly demonstrate your capacity to propagandize misinformation.
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HackOtaku
I posted the 500000th topic
Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 228
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Yet again with personal attacks. You'll notice I don't attack you in my entire rebuttal, but you can't seem to do the same.
You throw out "614" = young girl, where is your proof for this? There is no source that says this is the case, so it seems to me that you are just making it up to serve your own purposes.
Your counter point is "You are insisting a 1 year old could understand Arabic, which you could never" So we have a personal attack coupled with a strawman. I could learn Arabic, almost anyone could learn anything, but that's neither here nor there. I am not saying a 1 year old was understanding Arabic, you are just misrepresenting.
According to the timeline that you provided me (which is just wikipedia), the 54th was delivered 5 years after he started preaching, which started in 613.
source: http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/timeline_html.shtml
So, by that logic, 618 would be when that surah was revealed, which goes against the claims I've heard about it being 5 years prior to Hijrah and your own claim that it was delivered 9 years prior. How can these two timelines you've presented me with co-exist?
Another strawman: You claim I know nothing of the Qu'ran when we're not talking about the Qu'ran at all. You're not attempting to make any kind of point out of this, but maybe to try and bait me into claiming I think hadiths come from the Qu'ran? I can't think why else you would even bring this up.
In short, your argument is weak, try to work more on substance and really fleshing out a point instead of just debasing yourself to petty insults. But I think I am done with this topic, I have already proven my own sources for the information, and you have not sufficiently provided any strong counters. Because of this, and because of how often and quickly you seem to need to insult me, it's become clear to me that you are either incapable or unwilling to have a proper debate about this, so I'm not going to waste anymore of my own time.
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finnegan waking up
How do I cheat?
Reputation: 13
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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^quit because he failed and knows it
Also failed at reading, unlike four others I had proof-read this.
What a sad fool you are to think someone not even one year old would be married. Or to think you have any license or credibility or education on any of the subjects required to even begin articulating THIS subject.
The only progress this discussion has made is showing the extent of your ignorance, and the will you have exerted to secure your ignorance as foundation to buttress your arrogance.
On numerous occasions you have shown yourself to be incredulous. Calling this into my post is not an insult.
At least not on my behalf  
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