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Why Atheism is intellectually dishonest.
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Channel GannoK
pffrt

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Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:54 am Post subject:

GannoK wrote:

There's a reason atheism is the world's least popular religion

yea, the majority of the world is fucking stupid

1929394839292057839194958
Grandmaster Cheater Supreme

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Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:37 am Post subject:

konr wrote:

greatsage wrote:

Channel GannoK wrote:

Talix Is in a legitimate state of denial of reality, we can all see it, why even bother. We know this

never met any challenges or actually answered any questions posed to you

konr wrote:

Keep lying bud, it's fine. Have you told your partner about what a disgusting cunt you've been in your life to other people that didn't deserve it?

Please answer the above question Taylor it's been a while now and just after you've said we don't answer questions.
EDIT:
Another thing you still haven't answered is how you flat out lied (or took a lie as fact) and I asked if you understood how that might undermine your credibility a bit. Here's a nice piece about it:
https://richarddawkins.net/2016/05/a-vulture-spreads-the-false-rumor-that-hitchens-accepted-god-at-the-end/

Phrenic
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Why Atheism is intellectually dishonest.

I'm going to throw my two cents into this discussion and see if I can draw any interesting lines for you.

Quote:

However, I think it's intellectually dishonest to rule out god as a concept. I think of it more of an "it" than a "him ". Now, I don't believe this to be true as the only thing I really know is that I know nothing, but it is an idea I entertain. If you think about the world, we have science to explain what we experience. We can break things down into biology, physics, and evolution, but we can't explain why these things should happen in the first place. We know gravity comes from the pull of the earth on us, while it iself is locked in the sun's gravity, but we don't know why things should work like this anyway, only that they do. We may discover gravitons, and categorize how they act, and be able to make predictions based on that, but we are only ever observing the things that are happening, and it doesn't explain why anything should happen in the first place.

This reminds me of what God supposedly said to Moses in that "I am that I am". I don't think he actually spoke to Moses, but rather moses had the idea that all experience is God.

Atheism doesn't rule out the idea of an "It" God or a "Being" God, it's just very difficult for Atheism to deal with monotheistic religion without attacking core ideologies and in doing so constantly rebutting against the commonly accepted idea of "God". If you follow any of the world's known secular public intellectuals, Sam Harris for example, you will see the ideas of "Being" and "It" from the teachings of Vedanta and Buddhism embraced in a secular context - the only way in which the term God applies in this context is that you are the God of yourself.

Having said all of that, Atheism is deeply rooted in Scientific inquiry and inevitably labels reality with rationally understood, ultimately subjective ideas, just as religion itself loves to label reality with fanatical ideas about an ideologically separate and worshipped conception of "God". Buddhism, Taoism and most Eastern religions also embrace the truth that reality is arational, we project our comprehension of reality onto reality with our highest grade survival tools (rationality, logical thinking, abstract conception and so on).

Quote:

Beyond that though, you can't empirically disprove God, so you can't, in good scientific conscience claim there is no God. After all, if you allow God to exist conceptually as a force behind all forces (god of gods, after all) the its existence becomes self evident. Now this may sound like a pantheistic viewing in that all things are god, but I don't mean it like that. God is not all things in this regard, at best it would be nothing, and in being nothing, it is the capacity for all things.

You can at the very least understand why humans have created the idea of monotheistic God(s) to begin with and take a look at the way this reflects upon the personal lives of the religious, if there were a God would we really need to worship him under the name of fanaticism and with merciless emotional reinforcement?, why would "He" demand anything of us to begin with? when you take a closer look at the work of Science and secular thinking as a whole it becomes quite clear that monotheistic religion in its core teachings is only ever driven by a stagnated, unchanging and undivided view reality - these which promote mental servility, inability to adapt to change and an insecurely holistic dealing with almost every important aspect of human life.

Retracing back through to my beginning point, Atheism doesn't disregard the core teachings of Buddhism or Vedanta in that we ourselves are our own Gods, and Beings which come from the nothing of the Universe. But it does, and quite necessarily, rigorously break down and understand these concepts in the understanding of the nature of consciousness itself. There is a huge amount of self-actualization work based upon this and it is widely accepted by highly respectable, world renowned Scientific thinkers. If this kind of thing interests you I would recommend looking at Sam Harris's latest work on living with spirituality without religion. Smile

HackOtaku
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Why Atheism is intellectually dishonest.

Phrenic wrote:

I'm going to throw my two cents into this discussion and see if I can draw any interesting lines for you.

Quote:

I suppose when I talk about Atheism, I am used to the perspective of my Atheist friends, in which there is no "God" of any kind, and it's just an explanation for things we don't know yet, you are not the "God" of yourself, nor do you project reality onto reality, you just experience reality, and everyone experiences the same reality, albeit from different vantage points. They profusely believe that because it can't be proven, it isn't there. In this perspective, consciousness is irrelevant to the thing as a whole, and is nothing more than a byproduct of biology. I suppose the issue here is that "Atheism" doesn't actually have any hard and fast beliefs about things, simply the disbelieve in a higher power.

I will definitely, 100 percent agree with you on the God-worship thing. I can't bring myself to conceptualize why on Earth God would have created us just so we can worship him. It seems too inherently silly, if that's all he wanted, we would all just be doing that without question. This whole concept is what I personally believe lead to the ancient stories of Adam and Eve, in which people used to claim we were all perfect and everything and lived with God until we were tempted and gained our free will, thus "falling out of God's favour", and that we should do something to get back to that point of divinity. (i.e. pray, worship, accept x and y salvation) Ancient thoughts that I think arose from the craving of knowing why things are so fucked up and why humans can be so evil, and what it is we should do about it. I don't think, if there were such a thing as a "God", he would really care if we worshiped him or not, I don't think he would care about anything, he would just keep pushing things forward. "Care" might not be the right word, though.

As far as your points on Atheism not disregarding the general teachings of Buddhism, I am with you here halfway. It doesn't seem to me to disagree with the concepts of maya in that the world could be an illusion, but it does seem to disagree with concepts of karma and reincarnation. After all, some thing would have to be judging your actions in order for karma to work, but what would that thing be? And reincarnation is generally just laughed at/dismissed by most Atheists that I know, though it is not to say necessarily true of all Atheists, it just depends on how you define what Atheism is, I suppose. Atheism in terms of the denial of a monotheistic God who loves and watches over us I do not believe is dishonest or at odds with these ideas, but Atheism in the sense that the only things worth believing in are things that can be proven scientifically I think is. A lot of Atheists reject the notion of spirituality as well, as they feel it is the same as religion in a sense. I guess what's important here is which core beliefs of Buddhism you are referring to though.

I will check out Sam Harris' stuff when I find the time to, because I like a lot of the things you've said here, and it seems that some of your line of thinking stems from there. Gr8 post m8, glad to see another viewpoint on it all.

1929394839292057839194958
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 9:09 am Post subject:

Atheism has one definition. If you're defining it by saying anything other than that it means a lack of a belief in Theism then you're missing the point.

HackOtaku
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:57 am Post subject:

konr wrote:

Atheism has one definition. If you're defining it by saying anything other than that it means a lack of a belief in Theism then you're missing the point.

yee, that's true, it doesn't seem like Buddhism has a creator god, so it's not at odds.

I also don't really believe in a creator God, but I can't rule it out as a possibility, because what's my basis for such a claim?

1929394839292057839194958
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 12:05 pm Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

konr wrote:

Atheism has one definition. If you're defining it by saying anything other than that it means a lack of a belief in Theism then you're missing the point.

Yeah but that's not what Atheism is doing. Atheism is saying there is no reason to believe it, not that it's impossible. You can't rule out literally anything if you think like that.

HackOtaku
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject:

konr wrote:

HackOtaku wrote:

konr wrote:

Atheism has one definition. If you're defining it by saying anything other than that it means a lack of a belief in Theism then you're missing the point.

Yeah but that's not what Atheism is doing. Atheism is saying there is no reason to believe it, not that it's impossible. You can't rule out literally anything if you think like that.

I feel like most of the time Atheism is asserting that it isn't, i.e. there is no God and they are absolute in that stance. That's the issue I have with it.

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Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 2:48 pm Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

konr wrote:

HackOtaku wrote:

konr wrote:

Atheism has one definition. If you're defining it by saying anything other than that it means a lack of a belief in Theism then you're missing the point.

Yeah but that's not what Atheism is doing. Atheism is saying there is no reason to believe it, not that it's impossible. You can't rule out literally anything if you think like that.

I feel like most of the time Atheism is asserting that it isn't, i.e. there is no God and they are absolute in that stance. That's the issue I have with it.

I think you need to prod those people more and ask them if they're truly saying that or not. If they are they that isn't atheism.

Quote:

Many people tell me they wouldn’t mind if I were an agnostic, but that I shouldn’t be so arrogant as to be an atheist.

I used to call myself an agnostic because I could not logically prove whether a god exists, so I took the agnostic position that the existence of any god is unknown — and perhaps unknowable. I was without belief in any gods and thought it highly improbable that any supernatural beings exist. When I learned that this view is consistent with atheism, I became an atheist.

So, my “conversion” from agnosticism to atheism was more definitional than theological. In reality, depending on how terms are defined and their context, I can accurately call myself an atheist or an agnostic, as well as a humanist, secular humanist, freethinker, skeptic, rationalist, infidel, and more.

I’m curious about why people find “atheist” so much more threatening than “agnostic” when self-described “atheists” and “agnostics” often hold identical views about deities. As with atheists, agnostics almost never give equal merit to belief and disbelief. For instance, I can neither prove nor disprove the following claims.

Claim 1: The universe was created 30 minutes ago and the creator planted false memories in all of us.

Claim 2: Infidels who don’t believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster are condemned to burn for eternity in a vat of hot pasta sauce.

I assume we are all “agnostic” about these two hypotheses, but at the same time pretty certain they are false. (I’d also call myself an atheist with respect to such creators.) The burden of proof is on the person making the assertion — as it should be with any supernatural claim.

http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2015/01/14/atheist-or-agnostic-and-does-it-matter/35823

HackOtaku
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:38 pm Post subject:

That's a good read and very relevant. I suppose it really just is rhetoric at the end of the day. The bit about agnostic Christians is good, I often wonder how many people /truly/ believe or are just going through the motions due to societal constraints. Because at the points made, I would be atheist in terms of not believing, because I don't believe in anything (in terms of religious/spirituality), which means when posed with the question of "Do you believe in God?" I would answer no, and it's irrelevant if I disbelieve in him.

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