you are thinking of God differently than is illustrated by Qur'an.
Okay, and?
Thank you for demonstrating why a conversation with you is worthless. All you do is chastise for not believing in Islam enough.
I never chastised you? just pointed out that the definition of god you're giving doesn't really fit any other majority, so you might as well call it something else. it is you who is chastising me. if you're going to bring up a prophet of my religion, in discussion of God, then try not to make an ass of yourself by attacking me, when all i did was assume you were having any idea of what you were talking about, and were consistently discussing the same topic, by DISCUSSING THE SUBJECT YOU MENTIONED.
seriously? the only reason you cop out like this is because you haven't the capacity to rebute any of the points i have offered. the only thing you did was get rude, and ignore what i've said; that so much of your logic does not follow, and you are incorrect on several accounts.
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:47 am Post subject:
greatsage wrote:
HackOtaku wrote:
Quote:
you are thinking of God differently than is illustrated by Qur'an.
Okay, and?
Thank you for demonstrating why a conversation with you is worthless. All you do is chastise for not believing in Islam enough.
I never chastised you? just pointed out that the definition of god you're giving doesn't really fit any other majority, so you might as well call it something else. it is you who is chastising me. if you're going to bring up a prophet of my religion, in discussion of God, then try not to make an ass of yourself by attacking me, when all i did was assume you were having any idea of what you were talking about, and were consistently discussing the same topic, by DISCUSSING THE SUBJECT YOU MENTIONED.
seriously? the only reason you cop out like this is because you haven't the capacity to rebute any of the points i have offered. the only thing you did was get rude, and ignore what i've said.
You tell me I don't understand Islam, and you don't tell me my idea of God doesn't fit another majority, you expressly say:
Quote:
you are thinking of God differently than is illustrated by Qur'an.
No other religion is in question here.
Quote:
God is separate from the creation, in your ignorance you have lead yourself to confusion.
Requires a basis of a dualistic reality to be true in the first place. You don't know God is separate from creation, one could argue God is creation,
Quote:
moreover, if you can still see the waves... then you can make an inference of their creator.
If you can see the waves, maybe it is because you are their creator. You don't know if this is so.
You say things of God as if they are absolutely so, when you can't know.
you are thinking of God differently than is illustrated by Qur'an.
Okay, and?
Thank you for demonstrating why a conversation with you is worthless. All you do is chastise for not believing in Islam enough.
I never chastised you? just pointed out that the definition of god you're giving doesn't really fit any other majority, so you might as well call it something else. it is you who is chastising me. if you're going to bring up a prophet of my religion, in discussion of God, then try not to make an ass of yourself by attacking me, when all i did was assume you were having any idea of what you were talking about, and were consistently discussing the same topic, by DISCUSSING THE SUBJECT YOU MENTIONED.
seriously? the only reason you cop out like this is because you haven't the capacity to rebute any of the points i have offered. the only thing you did was get rude, and ignore what i've said.
You tell me I don't understand Islam, and you don't tell me my idea of God doesn't fit another majority, you expressly say:
Quote:
you are thinking of God differently than is illustrated by Qur'an.
No other religion is in question here.
Quote:
God is separate from the creation, in your ignorance you have lead yourself to confusion.
Requires a basis of a dualistic reality to be true in the first place. You don't know God is separate from creation, one could argue God is creation,
Quote:
moreover, if you can still see the waves... then you can make an inference of their creator.
If you can see the waves, maybe it is because you are their creator. You don't know if this is so.
You say things of God as if they are absolutely so, when you can't know.
>You tell me I don't understand Islam, and you don't tell me my idea of God doesn't fit another majority, you expressly say:
and is this chastisement? is it not love to correct your brother on his faults? i am not telling you, i am saying what i have seen you show. if you knew islam, there are inconsistencies in your actions and words when it comes to the subject.
>No other religion is in question here.
you also mentioned Christianity which has the same doctrine. Creator is separate from Creation.
>Requires a basis of a dualistic reality to be true in the first place.
In philosophy of mind, dualism is the position that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical,[1] or that the mind and body are not identical.[2] Thus, it encompasses a set of views about the relationship between mind and matter, and between subject and object, and is contrasted with other positions, such as physicalism and enactivism, in the mind–body problem.[1][2]
struggling to see how that requires a dualistic reality at all, as it makes no mention of the mind, or body. it is a simple axiom, applied and illustrated logically.
>You don't know God is separate from creation,
yes, I do.
>one could argue God is creation,
logically fallacious and unsound, if it can be argued than do so, but at this point you seem to be suggesting that a potter is simply baked clay. creation has to have a cause. God can not be created. especially not after creation... that he creates... ridiculous.
>If you can see the waves, maybe it is because you are their creator. You don't know if this is so.
this is a very bad analogy and so whatever you're trying to draw from it falls into an argument from false analogy.
given that the creator is all-knowing, i would indeed know if i were such a thing.
even the greeks came up with axioms for their philosophical discussions. you're not really making much sense of anything whatsoever. i'm pretty sure you're trolling at this point... bullshit tautologies.
>You say things of God as if they are absolutely so, when you can't know.
except, it is God that has said these things. This I Know.
Even some of the most devout Muslims don't say they 100% know and can prove the things they say are true within the scope of the world we live in. To say that you can is just fucking laughable. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of a God that is being explained as completely separate from this physical and observable world.
The God that you believe in is all knowing according to the scriptures you believe in. God said these things according to these same scriptures that you believe in. You can't prove these scriptures are true by saying that these scriptures say they are true. Please get a grip.
Even some of the most devout Muslims don't say they 100% know and can prove the things they say are true within the scope of the world we live in. To say that you can is just fucking laughable. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of a God that is being explained as completely separate from this physical and observable world.
The God that you believe in is all knowing according to the scriptures you believe in. God said these things according to these same scriptures that you believe in. You can't prove these scriptures are true by saying that these scriptures say they are true. Please get a grip.
>Even some of the most devout Muslims don't say they 100% know
0% of devout muslims say that they 100% know. only Allah 100% knows. this is what muslims say.
>You cannot prove or disprove the existence of a God that is being explained as completely separate from this physical and observable world.
completely untrue
and then your last paragraph was a strawman. (lol.. like the first wasn't. in fact it also illustrates you don't understand faith) gg
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 10:23 am Post subject:
greatsage wrote:
HackOtaku wrote:
greatsage wrote:
HackOtaku wrote:
Quote:
you are thinking of God differently than is illustrated by Qur'an.
Okay, and?
Thank you for demonstrating why a conversation with you is worthless. All you do is chastise for not believing in Islam enough.
I never chastised you? just pointed out that the definition of god you're giving doesn't really fit any other majority, so you might as well call it something else. it is you who is chastising me. if you're going to bring up a prophet of my religion, in discussion of God, then try not to make an ass of yourself by attacking me, when all i did was assume you were having any idea of what you were talking about, and were consistently discussing the same topic, by DISCUSSING THE SUBJECT YOU MENTIONED.
seriously? the only reason you cop out like this is because you haven't the capacity to rebute any of the points i have offered. the only thing you did was get rude, and ignore what i've said.
You tell me I don't understand Islam, and you don't tell me my idea of God doesn't fit another majority, you expressly say:
Quote:
you are thinking of God differently than is illustrated by Qur'an.
No other religion is in question here.
Quote:
God is separate from the creation, in your ignorance you have lead yourself to confusion.
Requires a basis of a dualistic reality to be true in the first place. You don't know God is separate from creation, one could argue God is creation,
Quote:
moreover, if you can still see the waves... then you can make an inference of their creator.
If you can see the waves, maybe it is because you are their creator. You don't know if this is so.
You say things of God as if they are absolutely so, when you can't know.
>You tell me I don't understand Islam, and you don't tell me my idea of God doesn't fit another majority, you expressly say:
and is this chastisement? is it not love to correct your brother on his faults? i am not telling you, i am saying what i have seen you show. if you knew islam, there are inconsistencies in your actions and words when it comes to the subject.
>No other religion is in question here.
you also mentioned Christianity which has the same doctrine. Creator is separate from Creation.
>Requires a basis of a dualistic reality to be true in the first place.
In philosophy of mind, dualism is the position that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical,[1] or that the mind and body are not identical.[2] Thus, it encompasses a set of views about the relationship between mind and matter, and between subject and object, and is contrasted with other positions, such as physicalism and enactivism, in the mind–body problem.[1][2]
struggling to see how that requires a dualistic reality at all, as it makes no mention of the mind, or body. it is a simple axiom, applied and illustrated logically.
>You don't know God is separate from creation,
yes, I do.
>one could argue God is creation,
logically fallacious and unsound, if it can be argued than do so, but at this point you seem to be suggesting that a potter is simply baked clay. creation has to have a cause. God can not be created. especially not after creation... that he creates... ridiculous.
>If you can see the waves, maybe it is because you are their creator. You don't know if this is so.
this is a very bad analogy and so whatever you're trying to draw from it falls into an argument from false analogy.
given that the creator is all-knowing, i would indeed know if i were such a thing.
even the greeks came up with axioms for their philosophical discussions. you're not really making much sense of anything whatsoever. i'm pretty sure you're trolling at this point... bullshit tautologies.
>You say things of God as if they are absolutely so, when you can't know.
except, it is God that has said these things. This I Know.
I don't want to go through every point, but the chastisement was not from you telling me my idea of God doesn't fit, it was from you saying my ignorance leads me to confusion. I am uncertain because there's nothing to be certain of. I think ignorance comes from believing firmly in any religion, but I don't turn around and say you must be ignorant and confused because you believe in Islam.(though I do say a fair amount about the problematic religion itself, and don't know why you believe in it.) I realize now though, you by other majorities, you may have just meant the other Abrahamic religions though.
As far as the dualistic bit goes, God being separate from creation, I suppose I am wrong that it requires one, just that I get the sense from the way you speak that the God you are talking of in that sense is, in fact, dualistic. There are certainly many other religions that can have God as the creator and still not be dualistic.
Arguing God is creation is simple though. God is everything, the grass grows because the grass is God, just as the trees are God and you are God, and everything that exists in the world exists to exist and for no other reason whatsoever. What created it? God. Who created God? God did. How can God create God? Because God is creation, there is only ever one thing and persception of distinct objects are an illusion. I don't understand what you mean by a potter being baked clay, though. Also, I don't believe this, I am just saying arguments I've heard from other people towards God which I have also considered but not given much weight to.
>If you can see the waves, maybe it is because you are their creator. You don't know if this is so.
this is a very bad analogy and so whatever you're trying to draw from it falls into an argument from false analogy.
When I think about the "waves" in this point, I just mean the ability to be able to sense the world around us. "You are their creator" in this sense means that because I have the ability to sense the world around me, the world around me is able to be sensed. Without me, in what form is there any concept of a world around me.
I have already given you an axiom: The only thing I know is that I know nothing. You keep popping up telling me I am wrong because you know this and that about this and that, but I have no reason to believe anything is true.
also: lol @
greatsage wrote:
the only reason you cop out like this is because you haven't the capacity to rebute any of the points i have offered.
when you literally said
greatsage wrote:
only a jerkoff writes that much that will never be read, simply because they love themselves talking. you were put in your place miles ago bruh
the last time I bothered trying to have a discussion with you.
Even some of the most devout Muslims don't say they 100% know and can prove the things they say are true within the scope of the world we live in. To say that you can is just fucking laughable. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of a God that is being explained as completely separate from this physical and observable world.
The God that you believe in is all knowing according to the scriptures you believe in. God said these things according to these same scriptures that you believe in. You can't prove these scriptures are true by saying that these scriptures say they are true. Please get a grip.
>Even some of the most devout Muslims don't say they 100% know
0% of devout muslims say that they 100% know. only Allah 100% knows. this is what muslims say.
>You cannot prove or disprove the existence of a God that is being explained as completely separate from this physical and observable world.
completely untrue
and then your last paragraph was a strawman. (lol.. like the first wasn't. in fact it also illustrates you don't understand faith) gg
I feel like you have selective reading capabilities when it comes to this subject. In this very thread you say that you know and just now you say only Allah knows. Which is it? Do you know or not? There's no strawman here friend, you've tried to use scripture as arguments for the legitimacy of scripture many times. You very often say we are claiming that God couldn't know something as if we are arguing that at all, which is the same thing. We aren't arguing about what God could do if he was real in these cases but rather if he is real and why we would come to the conclusion that you have about that.
I feel like you have selective reading capabilities when it comes to this subject. In this very thread you say that you know and just now you say only Allah knows. Which is it? Do you know or not? There's no strawman here friend, you've tried to use scripture as arguments for the legitimacy of scripture many times. You very often say we are claiming that God couldn't know something as if we are arguing that at all, which is the same thing. We aren't arguing about what God could do if he was real in these cases but rather if he is real and why we would come to the conclusion that you have about that.
obvious strawman is obvious. knows what? derp it's pretty plain you have the bad reading comprehension. we showcased that multiple times before if you want to put yourself on spot again.
>use scripture as arguments for the legitimacy of scripture many times
nope. another strawman
HackOtaku wrote:
greatsage wrote:
HackOtaku wrote:
greatsage wrote:
HackOtaku wrote:
Quote:
you are thinking of God differently than is illustrated by Qur'an.
Okay, and?
Thank you for demonstrating why a conversation with you is worthless. All you do is chastise for not believing in Islam enough.
I never chastised you? just pointed out that the definition of god you're giving doesn't really fit any other majority, so you might as well call it something else. it is you who is chastising me. if you're going to bring up a prophet of my religion, in discussion of God, then try not to make an ass of yourself by attacking me, when all i did was assume you were having any idea of what you were talking about, and were consistently discussing the same topic, by DISCUSSING THE SUBJECT YOU MENTIONED.
seriously? the only reason you cop out like this is because you haven't the capacity to rebute any of the points i have offered. the only thing you did was get rude, and ignore what i've said.
You tell me I don't understand Islam, and you don't tell me my idea of God doesn't fit another majority, you expressly say:
Quote:
you are thinking of God differently than is illustrated by Qur'an.
No other religion is in question here.
Quote:
God is separate from the creation, in your ignorance you have lead yourself to confusion.
Requires a basis of a dualistic reality to be true in the first place. You don't know God is separate from creation, one could argue God is creation,
Quote:
moreover, if you can still see the waves... then you can make an inference of their creator.
If you can see the waves, maybe it is because you are their creator. You don't know if this is so.
You say things of God as if they are absolutely so, when you can't know.
>You tell me I don't understand Islam, and you don't tell me my idea of God doesn't fit another majority, you expressly say:
and is this chastisement? is it not love to correct your brother on his faults? i am not telling you, i am saying what i have seen you show. if you knew islam, there are inconsistencies in your actions and words when it comes to the subject.
>No other religion is in question here.
you also mentioned Christianity which has the same doctrine. Creator is separate from Creation.
>Requires a basis of a dualistic reality to be true in the first place.
In philosophy of mind, dualism is the position that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical,[1] or that the mind and body are not identical.[2] Thus, it encompasses a set of views about the relationship between mind and matter, and between subject and object, and is contrasted with other positions, such as physicalism and enactivism, in the mind–body problem.[1][2]
struggling to see how that requires a dualistic reality at all, as it makes no mention of the mind, or body. it is a simple axiom, applied and illustrated logically.
>You don't know God is separate from creation,
yes, I do.
>one could argue God is creation,
logically fallacious and unsound, if it can be argued than do so, but at this point you seem to be suggesting that a potter is simply baked clay. creation has to have a cause. God can not be created. especially not after creation... that he creates... ridiculous.
>If you can see the waves, maybe it is because you are their creator. You don't know if this is so.
this is a very bad analogy and so whatever you're trying to draw from it falls into an argument from false analogy.
given that the creator is all-knowing, i would indeed know if i were such a thing.
even the greeks came up with axioms for their philosophical discussions. you're not really making much sense of anything whatsoever. i'm pretty sure you're trolling at this point... bullshit tautologies.
>You say things of God as if they are absolutely so, when you can't know.
except, it is God that has said these things. This I Know.
I don't want to go through every point, but the chastisement was not from you telling me my idea of God doesn't fit, it was from you saying my ignorance leads me to confusion. I am uncertain because there's nothing to be certain of. I think ignorance comes from believing firmly in any religion, but I don't turn around and say you must be ignorant and confused because you believe in Islam.(though I do say a fair amount about the problematic religion itself, and don't know why you believe in it.) I realize now though, you by other majorities, you may have just meant the other Abrahamic religions though.
As far as the dualistic bit goes, God being separate from creation, I suppose I am wrong that it requires one, just that I get the sense from the way you speak that the God you are talking of in that sense is, in fact, dualistic. There are certainly many other religions that can have God as the creator and still not be dualistic.
Arguing God is creation is simple though. God is everything, the grass grows because the grass is God, just as the trees are God and you are God, and everything that exists in the world exists to exist and for no other reason whatsoever. What created it? God. Who created God? God did. How can God create God? Because God is creation, there is only ever one thing and persception of distinct objects are an illusion. I don't understand what you mean by a potter being baked clay, though. Also, I don't believe this, I am just saying arguments I've heard from other people towards God which I have also considered but not given much weight to.
>If you can see the waves, maybe it is because you are their creator. You don't know if this is so.
this is a very bad analogy and so whatever you're trying to draw from it falls into an argument from false analogy.
When I think about the "waves" in this point, I just mean the ability to be able to sense the world around us. "You are their creator" in this sense means that because I have the ability to sense the world around me, the world around me is able to be sensed. Without me, in what form is there any concept of a world around me.
I have already given you an axiom: The only thing I know is that I know nothing. You keep popping up telling me I am wrong because you know this and that about this and that, but I have no reason to believe anything is true.
also: lol @
greatsage wrote:
the only reason you cop out like this is because you haven't the capacity to rebute any of the points i have offered.
when you literally said
greatsage wrote:
only a jerkoff writes that much that will never be read, simply because they love themselves talking. you were put in your place miles ago bruh
the last time I bothered trying to have a discussion with you.
> it was from you saying my ignorance leads me to confusion.
because you were plainly confused and the motivation for such is your ignorance. God is separate from His creation.
> I think ignorance comes from believing firmly in any religion,
yet in the case that the religion is truth, you still hold that ignorance comes from truth? interesting.
> I realize now though, you by other majorities, you may have just meant the other Abrahamic religions though.
yeah because the other notions of god are silly and have nothing to stand on. it tends like this in monotheism. islam is the oldest religion. you told me you have thoughts of its founder, tell me, what are these thoughts you have?
>I get the sense from the way you speak that the God you are talking of in that sense is, in fact, dualistic. There are certainly many other religions that can have God as the creator and still not be dualistic.
dualism last i checked inches towards shirk in islam. i like dualistic thinking. and nondualistic thinking. different modes of thinking have different benefits. i just do not apply dualism to the creator because it is not my job to apply anything to him, esp. parties created by duality.
> I don't understand what you mean by a potter being baked clay, though.
i vaguely agree with you on the vague concept of what preceded this. yes, we are all of God, all things are of God, so surely, all is God. but this is a completely different line of thinking. it almost sounds as if you disregarded that the potter and his pottery are different, and separate.
in the same way, we may say you are the earth. flowers, are the earth. they come from the earth, the same way as you did. but when i say you are the earth, that does not mean i am located on your surface. you do not house 7 billion people within your structure. similarly, yes, i look to a leaf and see God that does not mean I gaze upon His face.
however, it is silly to throw a tautological "creates self after creation", you need better terminology, this is just illogical. i have no idea what basis you could have for this. "because God is creation", i mean, i guess if a rugby player is touchdowns? God is the creator. if you're looking for a god-like entity that was born shortly after the universe you are looking for the "demiurge". the most logical assertion is to say that God pre-existed (even though the notion of before/after only exists within the universe) and willed the big bang. else there is nothing for the cause of the expansion.
paramatma is a term you may want to research. i am in all beings and all beings are in me
> "You are their creator" in this sense means that because I have the ability to sense the world around me, the world around me is able to be sensed. Without me, in what form is there any concept of a world around me.
so, mind is mirror jazz? yeah, you can say it's your physiology that shapes your perception. you can go all solipsist and conclude the most you barely have evidence for is whatever squeaks your grey matter together. another way i enjoyed looking at this was simply that consciousness creates matter, matter creates consciousness; consciousness is fundamentally the same as matter. maybe it's not the best conclusion, but i might can dig up more on this topic if you put a bit in my mouth (and said you were interested)
however, as a creation, i emit waves. i emit light. i can not emit my Creator or what He consists of.
>You keep popping up telling me I am wrong because you know this and that about this and that, but I have no reason to believe anything is true.
you don't have to believe anything or have any knowledge to say something that is wrong. a lack of belief does not mean all of your statements have substance, or logically hold.
>the last time I bothered trying to have a discussion with you.
you got whooped several times, and then put out a huge ass wall where reading the first few sentences it is blatant how mistaken you are. only a fool would continue wasting their time reading, much less replying when you openly disregard things multiple times. like dood, the contemporary view after the aya was revealed was exactly what you kept saying it isn't. esp. when Allah has told me what comes of that sort of discussion.
You're delusional to the point that you don't even see yourself doing it. All you need to do to see the answer to "knows what?" is read what you said yourself in this thread and what was asked of you during it. You are a fucking moron. This is not a good use of my time. Go fuck yourself.
You're delusional to the point that you don't even see yourself doing it. All you need to do to see the answer to "knows what?" is read what you said yourself in this thread and what was asked of you during it. You are a fucking moron. This is not a good use of my time. Go fuck yourself.
lol
try reading very carefully what i said, and you'll see how you're misrepresenting what i said, because you're claiming i said very different things than what i did. because you are a blatant liar who puts words in my mouth.
this is just, yet another case of you avoiding the issue, and refusing to answer a question. i bet im gonna see you define "knows" and "what" now and make a fool of yourself yet again
but instead you're just going to cop out because you know how ridiculously stupid you're being and would hate for an ego crush. the unfortunate part of this is that, since you're the mistaken one, and you're claiming i'm delusional for being mistaken... i guess you're admitting your own delusion
the only reason i say it's a strawman is because it counts as one; you are misrepresenting my statements to give an argument to dismiss your misrepresentation as if you actually dismissed my statement.
the only way it can't be a strawman is if you are so stupid it is a mistake on your behalf. i say stupid not because of the mistake, but because you're an asshole
I just made a quick video of me talking in response to you. Would you like to view it? By the way you calling me an asshole when you know full well I know what you've done to some young girls over the years is laughable. You know what you've done to people.
EDIT:
Here ya go Link
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject:
> it was from you saying my ignorance leads me to confusion.
because you were plainly confused and the motivation for such is your ignorance. God is separate from His creation.
This may be so, but I don't feel as though you are "in the know" of anything, and I don't see you as being less confused than me, just more sure of what someone else has thought about it all, which I think is unwise, but to each their own.
> I think ignorance comes from believing firmly in any religion,
yet in the case that the religion is truth, you still hold that ignorance comes from truth? interesting.
If it can be proven to be true, then no, believing firmly in such a religion would not be ignorant, but I see too many reasons for it to be false than to be true, I find this to be true of all religions.
>> I realize now though, you by other majorities, you may have just meant the other Abrahamic religions though.
>yeah because the other notions of god are silly and have nothing to stand on. it tends like this in monotheism. islam is the oldest religion. you told me you have thoughts of its founder, tell me, what are these thoughts you have?
And you do have something to stand on? What is it that you stand upon? As for my thoughts on Muhammad, I feel as though there is too much to say about him for this particular discourse, and that you and I would get lost in the details about this subject as to lose the plot of the current discussion, so it's best saved for another thread or as an isolated reply. Also, Islam is not the oldest religion. Zorastrianism, Jainism, Hinduism? You might argue that Islam as in "submission to God" is the oldest religion, but in doing so you are being dishonest, as you know that Islam has a current meaning in our place in history, and it means the religion that was sparked by Muhammad, and is far from the oldest.
>>I get the sense from the way you speak that the God you are talking of in that sense is, in fact, dualistic. There are certainly many other religions that can have God as the creator and still not be dualistic.
>dualism last i checked inches towards shirk in islam. i like dualistic thinking. and nondualistic thinking. different modes of thinking have different benefits. i just do not apply dualism to the creator because it is not my job to apply anything to him, esp. parties created by duality.
This is wise.
>i vaguely agree with you on the vague concept of what preceded this....[block of text I don't want to copy all of to save room on this post]...i am in all beings and all beings are in me.
Okay, thanks for both "demiurge" and "paramatma", they were both concepts I had but didn't have words for. And I agree, you are right in that neither the leaf nor the self is the true "God", but all are a part of that, I am with you here. But I can't know that there is some force behind it all that enables it to be, I can't know that it's not all just random chance and not actually divine in any way. But I will concede that in this context, "god is creation" would not suffice, but by God I am saying the fact that things exist are all that God could be and there's no reason for it at all possibly. There's also the idea that God is just our word for the unknown and he will someday be rendered pointless.
>so, mind is mirror jazz? yeah, you can say it's your physiology that shapes your perception. you can go all solipsist and conclude the most you barely have evidence for is whatever squeaks your grey matter together. another way i enjoyed looking at this was simply that consciousness creates matter, matter creates consciousness; consciousness is fundamentally the same as matter. maybe it's not the best conclusion, but i might can dig up more on this topic if you put a bit in my mouth (and said you were interested)
I am arguing that this is also possible. All we can truly "know" is self, but where is the self rooted? What gives rise to "self" other than everything that is not self?
>>You keep popping up telling me I am wrong because you know this and that about this and that, but I have no reason to believe anything is true.
>you don't have to believe anything or have any knowledge to say something that is wrong. a lack of belief does not mean all of your statements have substance, or logically hold.
How can you say something is wrong without knowing what right is?
>you got whooped several times, and then put out a huge ass wall where reading the first few sentences it is blatant how mistaken you are. only a fool would continue wasting their time reading, much less replying when you openly disregard things multiple times. like dood, the contemporary view after the aya was revealed was exactly what you kept saying it isn't. esp. when Allah has told me what comes of that sort of discussion.
My "huge ass wall of text" was me debunking everything you said to the best of my ability and you completely disregarded it and called yourself the "winner".
I just made a quick video of me talking in response to you. Would you like to view it? By the way you calling me an asshole when you know full well I know what you've done to some young girls over the years is laughable. You know what you've done to people.
EDIT:
Here ya go Link
The fact that you made a 25 minute video addressed to the person who will never watch it shows exactly how full of yourself you are when you consider that I'm supposed to be on your block list.
I am going to make this very clear for you, since something seems very wrong with your judgment today mr. tu quoque.
I said I know Allah is the One and true, only God.
I know He has made Himself evident. I know He has given ample signs.
I know there has never been a challenge met by you or the likes of you with anything other than violence.
I never claimed to be in 100% knowledge. I stated, reiterated, the All-Knowing is a title that belongs to Allah.
You were never clear enough in any of your verbiage to do anything other than distort the conversation, insert words, and your own meaning: to give your own perspective and serve your own purpose.
I hope you don't think these happen to be statements that cannot coincide;
I know there is no deity save Allah. I know Allah is All-Knowing.
Not once can you quote, directly, where it is that I stated I was 100% knowing. I stated all Muslims are not 100% knowing.
Like, this is so simple, and so plainly stated. It is actually perplexing and frightening how you must view the world if you are this far removed from something.
My exact words:
"This I Know."
It obviously indicates an article that I acknowledge.
Your exact words:
"now you say only Allah knows"
Which is obviously a straw man. Because it is a quote out of context.
As my exact words were:
"only Allah 100% knows"
Ascribing the article of omniscience as exclusivity as an attribute.
Which can stand completely aside what I said with "This I Know [shahadah]."
You have proved OP so right. Atheism is dishonest. And as an Atheist, you show yourself to be dishonest. Just one example from this topic was that you included with a wall of text "this is a waste of my time" and then... to someone who is supposed to be on your ignore list... Followed with an A 25 minute video!!!! When you are this far in left field!!!! Dude.
I will reply to you soon Justin, haven't read but love ya bud, really appreciate the civility and discussion we've had.
Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 1757 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 6:09 pm Post subject:
greatsage wrote:
you also forgot where i stated you have zero evidence towards the claim of fiction, or as one from a book.
Moses and many of the biblical characters had no hands on scripture... so to say He came from a non-existent book really puts holes in your claims.
in fact, Islam obviously predates book as Allah taught us to use the pen.
I can make a claim of fiction because there is no evidence he is real. Just like how I can say I am innocent, because there is no evidence I am guilty of anything. I don't have to prove I am innocent, just like how I don't have to prove a deity doesn't exist. The burden of proof lies with the one making outlandish statements. It's a good thing to question everything, it makes you less gullible.
Then perhaps not from a book, but from stories told to one another prior to a book being written covering the religious beliefs. Honestly, it's all the same. They're stories either told or written. Entertaining, but fictional. The fact that they may have existed prior to a book or scripture being brought into existence doesn't add any proof to his existence. It's like how Muslims are so proud of the fact that the Quran states that the earth is round, as if that shows some divine power guiding Muhammed with knowledge nobody at the time could have had. The Greeks already figured it out roughly 860 years before the Quran was written, but they never seem to mention or even know that. A man named Eratosthenes figured it out, and was even able to almost accurately calculate the size of the earth by measuring the distance of the shadows between two pole shaped objects. I mean there are mentions of it prior to Eratosthenes, but considering the dude actually found a way to roughly calculate the size of the planet I feel like the honor should go to this guy.
greatsage wrote:
faith is not by sight and i covered the difference beyond clear exposition and willful guidance by turning of the heart.
I would have that type of faith in a real person. One I could call on, and would actually answer me personally, not through riddles in a book.
greatsage wrote:
there are also plenty of records of Allah making himself known. but you would literally dismiss all of them. and Allah has told us He will make himself known by His signs. showing Himself is exactly what is doneand already achieved through His signs.
If you're saying some calamity is making himself known, or the birth of a child is making himself known, then yes, I would. Also, I wouldn't want him to make himself known to me persé, I'm not that cocky. I'm saying he should appear to the world as a whole.
greatsage wrote:
but don't dismay, He will make Himself known. but by then you will be too late.
This is exactly the same as someone telling me "if you don't behave you won't get any presents from Santa this year".
greatsage wrote:
regardless, the requirement is belief in the unseen... if Angels or Allah are made to be seen, it is not faith.
What a flawed system. And what a bunch of deluded people in charge.
greatsage wrote:
besides, even if Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala were to show Himself to you, what logical evidence do you have that you would believe?
If Allah came down to earth, and started creating new forms of life on the spot out of thin air, I'd be willing to believe he is a god. That or a ridiculous display of power (manipulate gravity).
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