HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 2:34 pm Post subject: Why Atheism is intellectually dishonest.
So, I was an atheist for a while as a reaction to learning the issues in Christianity. I was very taken by science and its ability to explain the natural world. There is no god made perfect sense. He doesn't seem to listen or care about the world and there's no empirical evidence for him, so there's no reason to believe. I still think this is true in regards to a personal god, one who answers prayers and protects you and that.
However, I think it's intellectually dishonest to rule out god as a concept. I think of it more of an "it" than a "him ". Now, I don't believe this to be true as the only thing I really know is that I know nothing, but it is an idea I entertain. If you think about the world, we have science to explain what we experience. We can break things down into biology, physics, and evolution, but we can't explain why these things should happen in the first place. We know gravity comes from the pull of the earth on us, while it iself is locked in the sun's gravity, but we don't know why things should work like this anyway, only that they do. We may discover gravitons, and categorize how they act, and be able to make predictions based on that, but we are only ever observing the things that are happening, and it doesn't explain why anything should happen in the first place.
This reminds me of what God supposedly said to Moses in that "I am that I am". I don't think he actually spoke to Moses, but rather moses had the idea that all experience is God.
Beyond that though, you can't empirically disprove God, so you can't, in good scientific conscience claim there is no God. After all, if you allow God to exist conceptually as a force behind all forces (god of gods, after all) the its existence becomes self evident. Now this may sound like a pantheistic viewing in that all things are god, but I don't mean it like that. God is not all things in this regard, at best it would be nothing, and in being nothing, it is the capacity for all things.
This goes back to the big bang, before the big bang there was nothing, then there was something which rapidly expanded into everything. That something which came after nothing would be "God" in this aspect.
Now, again, I don't really believe in this or in anything, I just wanted to throw the thoughts out there, and to say that Atheism can be just as bad as religion when it comes to silencing your mind to what might be the truth. I think the "real" truth, if there is such a thing, lies in a meeting point between this common theme religions share and our scientific knowing of the world. I don't think a single religion has the whole truth, though, and I still regard science as higher than religion because it can be tested. All I'm saying is don't be so quick to say there is no god if you can't prove that this is so.
Last edited by HackOtaku on Wed May 11, 2016 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
This is why I am agnostic theist. I believe there is a god...but what humans portray god to be is usually in their own benefit. I don't think humans can really understand god without claiming god to be partially human, which is really convenient. _________________
I'm a young producer and rapper from Washington D.C.
If the multiverse theory is correct, then it's not impossible for there to be a god in one universe. I just don't think humanity has any relevance with such a being. _________________
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:12 pm Post subject:
Thinking it over, the things we refer to as "God" are really just placeholders for the unknown. God was originally in everything, and as our knowledge grew, we slowly cut and chipped away at what god wasn't, only leaving room today for the very strange and mysterious (quantum mechanics/big bang/black holes). There is still a force, which you could called "God" driving all events forward, and we can only ever witness the effects of this force and never the force itself, and there are still divine laws of this force which can't be broken (physics). In this line of thinking, God is the unknown, the absolute truth of all things, and humanity is the truth seeker, poking and proding it until we figure out what makes it tick. Maybe someday we'll have everything down to a science, and God will officially be disproven in that there is no longer a need for him for explanation of anything (This is what Nietzsche means by God is dead, I believe.) but I do not feel that we have reached this point.
I am glad you have been someone to make seemingly intellectual discussion over this subject. I say seemingly due to being busy and not having read.
I am that I am is a bad translation. I will read all and give you some points when I can bud. Salaam alaikum
Edit: I will leave these here. In Islam during salah (prayer) we do repetitive meditation on pondering the names and aspects of God. This is known as dhikr. We try to say subhan'Allah, Allahu Ackbar, Alhamdulillah 100 times total each prayer.
I will fix the format later, sorry about it
1الرحمن Ar-Rahman The Exceedingly Compassionate, The Exceedingly Beneficent, The Exceedingly Gracious (to all of humanity and all creatures) Ar-Raḥmān Beginning of every Surah (chapter) except one, and numerous other places. The first verse ('ayat) of Surah ar-Rahman (Surah 55) consists only of this Name.D
2الرحيم Ar-Rahim The Exceedingly Merciful Ar-Raḥīm Beginning of every Surah (chapter) except one, and numerous other places (there are a total of 114 Surahs in the Quran.)D
3الملك Al-Malik The King, The Sovereign Al-Malik, 59:23, 20:114, 23:116D
4القدوس Al-Quddus The Holy, The Divine, The Pure, The Purifier Al-Quddūs, 59:23, 62:1D
5السلام As-Salam The Peace, The Source of Peace and Safety As-Salām, 59:23D
6المؤمن Al-Muʾmin The Granter of Security Al-Muʾmin, 59:23D
7المهيمن Al-Muhaymin The Controller Al-Muhaymin, 59:23D
8العزيز Al-Aziz The Almighty, The Invulnerable, The Honorable Al-ʿAzīz, 3:6, 4:158, 9:40, 48:7, 59:23D
9الجبار Al-Jabbar The Irresistible, The Compeller Al-Jabbār, 59:23D
10المتكبر Al-Mutakabbir The Majestic, The Supreme Al-Mutakabbir, 59:23D
11الخالق Al-Khaliq The Creator Al-Khāliq, 6:102, 13:16,[13] 36:81, 39:62, 40:62, 59:24D
12البارئ Al-Bariʾ The Evolver, The Maker Al-Bāriʾ, 59:24D
13المصور Al-Musawwir The Fashioner, The Shaper, The Designer Al-Muṣawwir, 59:24D
14الغفار Al-Ghaffar The Repeatedly Forgiving Al-Ghaffār, 20:82, 38:66, 39:5, 40:42, 71:10D
15القهار Al-Qahhar The Subduer Al-Qahhār, 12:39, 13:16, 14:48, 38:65, 39:4, 40:16D
16الوهاب Al-Wahhab The Bestower Al-Wahhāb, 3:18, 38:9, 38:35D
17الرزاق Ar-Razzaq The Provider, The Sustainer Ar-Razzāq, 51:58D
18الفتاح Al-Fattah The Opener, The Victory Giver Al-Fattāḥ, 34:26D
19العليم Al-ʿAlim The All-Knowing, Omniscient Al-ʿAlīm, 2:158, 3:92, 4:35, 24:41, 33:40D
20القابض Al-Qabid The Restrainer, The Straightener Al-Qābiḍ, 2:245V
21الباسط Al-Basit The Extender / Expander Al-Bāsiṭ, 2:245V
22الخَافِض Al-Khafid The Abaser, The Humiliator, The Downgrader Al-Khāfiḍ, 56:3, see al-Kafʿamī[14]O
23الرافع Ar-Rafiʿ The Exalter, The Upgrader Ar-Rāfiʿ, 58:11, 6:83V
24المعز Al-Muʿizz The Giver of Honor Al-Muʿizz, 3:26V
25المذل Al-Muzill The Giver of Dishonor Al-Muzill, 3:26V
26السميع As-Sami' The All-Hearing As-Samīʿ, 2:127, 2:256, 8:17, 49:1D
27البصير Al-Basir The All-Seeing Al-Baṣīr, 4:58, 17:1, 42:11, 42:27D
28الحكم Al-Hakam The Judge, The Arbitrator Al-Ḥakam, 22:69V
29العدل Al-ʿAdl The Utterly Just Al-ʿAdl, 6:115, See al-Kafʿamī[15]
30اللطيف Al-Latif The Gentle, The Subtly Kind Al-Laṭīf, 6:103, 22:63, 31:16, 33:34D
31الخبير Al-Khabir The All-Aware Al-Khabīr, 6:18, 17:30, 49:13, 59:18D
32الحليم Al-Halim The Forbearing, The Indulgent Al-Ḥalīm, 2:235, 17:44, 22:59, 35:41A
33العظيم Al-ʿAzim The Great, The Magnificent Al-ʿAẓīm, 2:255, 42:4, 56:96D
34الغفور Al-Ghafur The Much-Forgiving Al-Ghafūr, 2:173, 8:69, 16:110, 41:32D
35الشكور Ash-Shakur The Grateful Ash-Shakūr, 35:30, 35:34, 42:23, 64:17A
36العلي Al-ʿAlī The Sublime Al-ʿAlī, 4:34, 31:30, 42:4, 42:51 34:23D
37الكبير Al-Kabir The Great Al-Kabīr, 13:9, 22:62, 13:30, 34:23D
38الحفيظ Al-Hafiz The Preserver Al-Ḥafīẓ, 11:57, 34:21, 42:6A
39المقيت Al-Muqit The Nourisher Al-Muqīt, 4:85I
40الحسيب Al-Hasib The Bringer of Judgment Al-Ḥasīb, 4:6, 4:86, 33:39I
41الجليل Al-Jalil The Majestic, The Exalted Al-Jalīl, 55:27, 7:143A, V
42الكريم Al-Karim The Bountiful, The Generous Al-Karīm, 27:40, 82:6D
43الرقيب Ar-Raqib The Watchful Ar-Raqīb, 4:1, 5:117D
44المجيب Al-Mujib The Responsive, The Answerer Al-Mujīb, 11:61A
45الواسع Al-Wasiʿ The Vast, The All-Embracing, The Omnipresent, The Boundless Al-Wāsiʿ, 2:268, 3:73, 5:54A
46الحكيم Al-Hakim The All-Wise Al-Ḥakīm, 31:27, 46:2, 57:1, 66:2D
47الودود Al-Wadud The Loving Al-Wadūd, 11:90, 85:14D
48المجيد Al-Majid The All-Glorious, The Majestic Al-Majīd, 11:73A
49الباعث Al-Baʿith The Resurrector Al-Bāʿith, 22:7V
50الشهيد Ash-Shahid The Witness Ash-Shahīd, 4:166, 22:17, 41:53, 48:28A
51الحق Al-Haqq The Truth, The Reality Al-Ḥaqq, 6:62, 22:6, 23:116, 24:25D
52الوكيل Al-Wakil The Trustee, The Dependable, The Advocate Al-Wakīl, 3:173, 4:171, 28:28, 73:9A
53القوي Al-Qawiy The Strong Al-Qawiy, 22:40, 22:74, 42:19, 57:25D
54المتين Al-Matin The Firm, The Steadfast Al-Matīn, 51:58D
55الولي Al-Wali The Friend, Patron and Helper Al-Walī, 4:45, 7:196, 42:28, 45:19D
56الحميد Al-Hamid The All Praiseworthy Al-Ḥamīd, 14:8, 31:12, 31:26, 41:42D
57المحصي Al-Muhsi The Accounter, The Numberer of All Al-Muḥṣī, 72:28, 78:29V
58المبدئ Al-Mubdiʾ The Originator, The Producer, The Initiator Al-Mubdiʾ, 10:34, 27:64, 29:19, 85:13V
59المعيد Al-Muʿid The Restorer, The Reinstater Who Brings Back All Al-Muʿīd, 10:34, 27:64, 29:19, 85:13V
60المحيي Al-Muhyi The Giver of Life Al-Muḥyī, 7:158, 15:23, 30:50, 57:2V
61المميت Al-Mumit The Bringer of Death Al-Mumīt, 3:156, 7:158, 15:23, 57:2V
62الحي Al-Hayy The Living Al-Ḥayy, 2:255, 3:2, 20:111, 25:58, 40:65D
63القيوم Al-Qayyum The Subsisting, The Independent Al-Qayyūm, 2:255, 3:2, 20:111D
64الواجد Al-Wajid The Perceiver, The Finder, The Unfailing Al-Wājid, 38:44V
65الماجد Al-Majid The Illustrious, The Magnificent Al-Mājid, 85:15, 11:73, see al-Kafʿamī[16]A
66الواحد Al-Wahid The Unique, The Single Al-Wāḥid, 13:16, 14:48, 38:65, 39:4D
67الاحد Al-Ahad The One, The Indivisible Al-Aḥad, 112:1A
68الصمد As-Samad The Eternal, The Absolute, The Self-SufficientAṣ-Ṣamad, 112:2D
69القادر Al-Qadir The All-Powerful, He Who is able to do Everything Al-Qādir, 6:65, 46:33, 75:40D
70المقتدر Al-Muqtadir The Determiner, The Dominant Al-Muqtadir, 18:45, 54:42, 6:65A
71المقدم Al-Muqaddim The Expediter, He Who Brings Forward Al-Muqaddim, 16:61V
72المؤخر Al-Muʾakhkhir The Delayer, He Who Puts Far Away Al-Muʾakhkhir, 71:4V
73الأول Al-Awwal The First, The Beginning-less Al-Awwal, 57:3D
74الأخر Al-Aakhir The Last, The Endless Al-Aakhir, 57:3D
75الظاهر Az-Zahir The Manifest, The Evident, The OuterAẓ-Ẓāhir, 57:3D
76الباطن Al-Batin The Hidden, The Unmanifest, The Inner Al-Bāṭin, 57:3D
77الوالي Al-Wali The Patron, The Protecting Friend, The Friendly Lord Al-Wālī, 13:11I
78المتعالي Al-Mutaʿali The Supremely Exalted, The Most High Al-Mutaʿālī, 13:9D
79البر Al-Barr The Good, The Beneficent Al-Barr, 52:28D
80التواب At-Tawwab The Ever-Returning, Ever-RelentingAt-Tawwāb, 2:128, 4:64, 49:12, 110:3D
81المنتقم Al-Muntaqim The Avenger Al-Muntaqim, 32:22, 43:41, 44:16P
82العفو Al-ʿAfu The Pardoner, The Effacer, The Forgiver Al-ʿAfū, 4:43, 4:99, 4:149, 22:60, 58:2V, I
83الرؤوف Ar-Raʾuf The Kind, The Pitying Ar-Raʾūf,3:30, 9:117, 57:9, 59:10I
84مالك الملك Ahib-ul-Mulk Owner of all SovereigntyMālik-ul-Mulk, 3:26D
85ذو الجلال والإكرام Zul-Jalali wal-Ikram Lord of Majesty and GenerosityDhū-l-Jalāli-wa-l-ikrām, 55:27, 55:78D
86المقسط Al-Muqsit The Equitable, The Requiter Al-Muqsiṭ,7:29, 3:18, See al-Kafʿamī[17]O
87الجامع Al-Jamiʿ The Gatherer, The Unifier Al-Jāmiʿ, 3:9I
88الغني Al-Ghani The Rich, The Independent Al-Ghanī,3:97, 39:7, 47:38, 57:24I, A, D
89المغني Al-Mughni The Enricher, The Emancipator Al-Mughnī, 9:28V
90المانع Al-Maniʿ The Withholder, The Shielder, The Defender Al-Māniʿ, See al-Kafʿamī[18]
91الضارAd-Darr The Distressor, The Harmer, The AfflictorAḍ-Ḍārr, 6:17, see al-Kafʿamī[19]
92النافعAn-Nafiʿ The Propitious, The Benefactor, The Source of GoodAn-Nāfiʿ, 30:37, see al-Kafʿamī[19]
93النورAn-Nur The LightAn-Nūr, 24:35I
94الهادي Al-Hadi The Guide, The Way Al-Hādī, 22:54I
95البديع Al-Badiʿ The Incomparable, The Unattainable, The Beautiful Al-Badīʿ, 2:117, 6:101I
96الباقي Al-Baqi The Immutable, The Infinite, The Everlasting Al-Bāqī, 55:27, see al-Kafʿamī[20]V
97الوارث Al-Warith The Heir, The Inheritor of All Al-Wārith, 15:23, 57:10P
98الرشيد Ar-Rashid The Guide to the Right Path Ar-Rashīd, 2:256, 72:10, see al-Kafʿamī[20]
99الصبور As-Sabur The Timeless, The Patient
Last edited by finnegan waking up on Fri May 13, 2016 4:01 am; edited 2 times in total
So, I was an atheist for a while as a reaction to learning the issues in Christianity. I was very taken by science and its ability to explain the natural world. There is no god made perfect sense. He doesn't seem to listen or care about the world and there's no empirical evidence for him, so there's no reason to believe. I still think this is true in regards to a personal god, one who answers prayers and protects you and that.
However, I think it's intellectually dishonest to rule out god as a concept. I think of it more of an "it" than a "him ". Now, I don't believe this to be true as the only thing I really know is that I know nothing, but it is an idea I entertain. If you think about the world, we have science to explain what we experience. We can break things down into biology, physics, and evolution, but we can't explain why these things should happen in the first place. We know gravity comes from the pull of the earth on us, while it iself is locked in the sun's gravity, but we don't know why things should work like this anyway, only that they do. We may discover gravitons, and categorize how they act, and be able to make predictions based on that, but we are only ever observing the things that are happening, and it doesn't explain why anything should happen in the first place.
This reminds me of what God supposedly said to Moses in that "I am that I am". I don't think he actually spoke to Moses, but rather moses had the idea that all experience is God.
Beyond that though, you can't empirically disprove God, so you can't, in good scientific conscience claim there is no God. After all, if you allow God to exist conceptually as a force behind all forces (god of gods, after all) the its existence becomes self evident. Now this may sound like a pantheistic viewing in that all things are god, but I don't mean it like that. God is not all things in this regard, at best it would be nothing, and in being nothing, it is the capacity for all things.
This goes back to the big bang, before the big bang there was nothing, then there was something which rapidly expanded into everything. That something which came after nothing would be "God" in this aspect.
Now, again, I don't really believe in this or in anything, I just wanted to throw the thoughts out there, and to say that Atheism can be just as bad as religion when it comes to silencing your mind to what might be the truth. I think the "real" truth, if there is such a thing, lies in a meeting point between this common theme religions share and our scientific knowing of the world. I don't think a single religion has the whole truth, though, and I still regard science as higher than religion because it can be tested. All I'm saying is don't be so quick to say there is no god if you can't prove that this is so.
>atheist bc issues of Christianity
same. And as I learned more of Christianity, and Islam, and their origins, one is heavily corrupted by men and has been edited numerous times. Christianity is highly illogical, incredibly contradictory, and with tons of innovations.
The crucifixion was a lie, and Jesus never asked to be worshipped or claimed to be God. The reason Muhammad was sent to mankind was as mercy to deliver the final revelation and reveal the religion of Allah as man moved so far from the message of Christ.
>There is no god made perfect sense.
I don't know what you mean. You will never be able to encompass the knowledge of God, save what He will. God is also not made, and is beyond understanding. You can not attribute human attributes to God.
>He doesn't seem to listen or care about the world and there's no empirical evidence for him, so there's no reason to believe.
God is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. Allah loves and cares about the world. You can not blame Allah for the actions of men. I have so many who perceive the exact opposite.
>One who answers prayers
Allah answers all prayers. Never with a "No"
>as an it not him
I am sure you are familiar with masculine/feminine words in other languages. English doesn't give much of a crap for them.
The word for Allah means "The God", and it is without gender, although the Arabic language does indeed have genders.
The rest of that paragraph seems to be touching on the "fine tuned universe" argument for God.
Also, Moses did a lot more than just have conversation with Allah. Allah talking directly to one is impossible without death. There were only a few prophets out of all that spoke with Allah, without an intermediary. It is the highest honour.
A better translation for I am that I am is "The ever-living, the self-subsisting"
Also, if he got the inspiration that all experience is God, he would not have done as he instructed through exodus.
>god of gods
There is no deity save for Allah. If you're gonna insist there is no evidence (eye roll) I would at least say with Occam's razor applied you can't have more than one God without over-complication. If you would like me to discuss this more with you I can.
>then it's existence becomes evidence
Yes, you are correct, there must be an initial cause, and one to cause.
>God is not all things in this regard
He is, however, with all things. And He is the sole possessor of all of his Godly attributes. You can not have many beings with many attributes of God. One being cant be omniscient, another omnipotent, etc. God is One, and is the only possessor of his attributes.
With this it is important to understand: comprehension of these attributes that are exclusive to one being, is not possible, because the only familiarity you have with these attributes is Allah and His Message.
>before the Big Bang there was nothing
I may be reading this wrong, or you may just have the wrong conception.
Before the Big Bang there was everything. It was just in a single, hot, condensed point. Allah is cause for its expansion. I want to say something like like a hundredth million millionth of a fraction of the mass could've been removed and the universe would've recollapsed upon itself. Instead of saying there is something which then rapidly expanded into everything, it is more accurate to say, everything expanded. This is probably when time became a thing.
>the something that came after the nothing would be God in this aspect
God exists independent of all beings and things. He exists outside of space and time, while being omnipresent. Allah never refers to himself as the heavens, but as the lord of the heavens.
Moreover, God is to have been present before the universe. To say his arrival culminated with the start of the universe asserts birth; ergo, with the birth of the universe is the birth of God.
This is not the case. God is not only timeless, but one of the names for Allah derives from the word for womb. This is a reference to the mercy, compassion, and protection of the womb; but it is also as He is known as one who is never born, never begotten. This definition you give is describing God as incredibly limited, and dependent for one to beget.
>between this common theme religions share
Monotheism? There was never a peoples whom Allah did not send a plain Warner unto: Allah sent messengers to all people. This is why there is so much common ground between some religions; of course they will incline together as they are messengers of the same One God.
al-Qur'an contains the same message all sent to all messengers. It is the most complete and protected Holy scripture.
> I don't think a single religion has the whole truth, though
So you think God wants multiple religions that are equally wrong? Or do you think God would prescribe religion? If so, why not one religion, that is simply defined as submission to the Will of God? If God sends messengers, why would he allow for their works to be so corrupted?
Read for more on what I meant on the disgusting corruption in the New Testament and how abhorrent Christianity is:
http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/MYFormationofNEWTestamentv2.htm
Moreover, if Christianity is broken, and it is, why would Allah send messengers but not allow those messengers to contrive their own books? Moses did. And a lot more happened to him than just the burning bush. Poor Moses alayhe salaam.
If Allah really wants to give his Message, why have men convey their works of Him? This is the problem with Christianity. Allah put His words in Muhammad's mouth; Qur'an differs because it is not man's accounts of biblical events. Qur'an differs because it is Allah's word, verbatim. Do you not find it possible God to convey such a thing, and to keep it protected?
[5:3] ... This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. ...
[10:37] This Qur'an could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible -- indeed, there is no doubt -- for it comes from the Lord of the universe.
[15:9] Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian and preserve it from corruption.
But instead of asking about what you think God may want to do or not do, let's ask questions about how certain things came about.
How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject? How could an unlettered man lay down a complete law in all spheres of life, which is recognized by those with fairness and respect for the truth? How could the Islamic financial system be crafted by an unlettered man fourteen hundred years ago and yet be the fittest today?
Allah has sent His final revelation, and His final prophet. Unfortunately, you have been poisoned by Christianity and propaganda. You know nothing of Islam, of the life of Muhammad, anything of the sort. What you think you know of religion is terrible misinformation.
Why don't you at least start pondering this field more intently via reading a book you have left unread? Allah commands you to guide yourself through intellect and reason through your own contemplation of God, creation, and the cosmos. I am incapable of putting forth as great of an argument as scripture, I am no where near as compelling.
But I know it is true.
And I know you will too.
Allah may could seize us all and submit as fearful believers. But Allah tests us; builds us up. Allah guides us. Allah empowers us. He just wants your belief and submission willfully.
Typed this all on phone. Sorry for any errors or w/e
edit:
this is also a decent explanation but is very rushed as he prefaces
Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 1757 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 6:46 am Post subject:
I like how you're throwing up god as a sort of concept for the unknown, but that just makes Him more apparent as a fictional character. I don't believe atheism is any more dishonest in denying deities, as I am in denying Bugs Bunny as a real being. I'm all for keeping an open mind, and I sure as hell would be willing to believe should He appear in front of us, but until that time he's right up there with the looney toons.
I like how you're throwing up god as a sort of concept for the unknown, but that just makes Him more apparent as a fictional character. I don't believe atheism is any more dishonest in denying deities, as I am in denying Bugs Bunny as a real being. I'm all for keeping an open mind, and I sure as hell would be willing to believe should He appear in front of us, but until that time he's right up there with the looney toons.
so because he's imagining venn diagrams, you're insisting it makes fiction more apparent? that would mean you have any evidence whatsoever to insist such. you don't.
moreover, would you really classify a deity as something that is only what is known...?
Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 1757 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:19 am Post subject:
greatsage wrote:
Aniblaze wrote:
I like how you're throwing up god as a sort of concept for the unknown, but that just makes Him more apparent as a fictional character. I don't believe atheism is any more dishonest in denying deities, as I am in denying Bugs Bunny as a real being. I'm all for keeping an open mind, and I sure as hell would be willing to believe should He appear in front of us, but until that time he's right up there with the looney toons.
so because he's imagining venn diagrams, you're insisting it makes fiction more apparent? that would mean you have any evidence whatsoever to insist such. you don't.
moreover, would you really classify a deity as something that is only what is known...?
I'm saying it adds to his fictional state. He was always fictional. He's literally a character from a book.
EDIT: Forgot your last question there: I'm saying I would acknowledge a deity if it let's itself be known (with our 5 real senses).
I like how you're throwing up god as a sort of concept for the unknown, but that just makes Him more apparent as a fictional character. I don't believe atheism is any more dishonest in denying deities, as I am in denying Bugs Bunny as a real being. I'm all for keeping an open mind, and I sure as hell would be willing to believe should He appear in front of us, but until that time he's right up there with the looney toons.
so because he's imagining venn diagrams, you're insisting it makes fiction more apparent? that would mean you have any evidence whatsoever to insist such. you don't.
moreover, would you really classify a deity as something that is only what is known...?
I'm saying it adds to his fictional state. He was always fictional. He's literally a character from a book.
EDIT: Forgot your last question there: I'm saying I would acknowledge a deity if it let's itself be known (with our 5 real senses).
you also forgot where i stated you have zero evidence towards the claim of fiction, or as one from a book.
Moses and many of the biblical characters had no hands on scripture... so to say He came from a non-existent book really puts holes in your claims.
in fact, Islam obviously predates book as Allah taught us to use the pen.
faith is not by sight and i covered the difference beyond clear exposition and willful guidance by turning of the heart.
there are also plenty of records of Allah making himself known. but you would literally dismiss all of them. and Allah has told us He will make himself known by His signs. showing Himself is exactly what is doneand already achieved through His signs.
but don't dismay, He will make Himself known. but by then you will be too late.
regardless, the requirement is belief in the unseen... if Angels or Allah are made to be seen, it is not faith.
besides, even if Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala were to show Himself to you, what logical evidence do you have that you would believe?
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:59 am Post subject:
Aniblaze wrote:
I like how you're throwing up god as a sort of concept for the unknown, but that just makes Him more apparent as a fictional character. I don't believe atheism is any more dishonest in denying deities, as I am in denying Bugs Bunny as a real being. I'm all for keeping an open mind, and I sure as hell would be willing to believe should He appear in front of us, but until that time he's right up there with the looney toons.
Yeah, the concept of him as unknown became apparent when I really considered what "God" was. Originally, he's the concept of the "creator", and he existed as everything. Like I said, we slowly wore him down into nothing but the questions that we still have today. So I think to myself "Why does anything happen?" and the answer of "The laws of physics work in such a way to allow them to happen." then I am forced to ask "Why should the laws of physics work in such a way? What makes them work the way they work?" and in this regard I come to "God", but I agree with what I said before, this is just a placeholder for some other word or mathematical equation that we may know in the future. In this sense, man created god so that he may one day kill him.
Now as far as God as a deity, I believe this is a foolish line of thinking. When I think of "god", personally, I think of it as the force behind all things. I think of a ship travelling across water. As the ship moves, it leaves waves in its wake, and those waves are our concept of the world, but the waves can't accurately describe the ship. Similarly so, it's possible our descriptions of the thing (in the sense of maths and science) may not accurately reflect the thing itself.
As far as atheism being dishonest, I guess my thinking of that is something along the lines of that you disbelieve in Christian theology due to all the errors you've discovered and a lack of empirical evidence. This is good. However, you then turn around and say you don't believe in God, even though you still have no empirical evidence for him not existing. How can you justify the statement of "there is no god at all" when you can't prove it? It's an act of faith just as any religion is an act of faith, and acts of faith aren't intellectually honest (in my own opinion.) There are many concepts of what "God" is beyond just the Abrahamic man-in-the-sky model. Granted, I believe in the expression "the only thing I know is that I know nothing", so my own thoughts on it are biased, but I feel as though an agnostic viewpoint leaves you more open to possibilities. Because I only believe in things that can be proven, and neither the existence nor nonexistence of God can be proven, I choose to subscribe to neither idea. Instead, I read about all the concepts people have had of God, and entertain the ideas they've had without subscribing to those either.
@Talix: Because you use lines like
Quote:
Allah has sent His final revelation, and His final prophet. Unfortunately, you have been poisoned by Christianity and propaganda. You know nothing of Islam, of the life of Muhammad, anything of the sort. What you think you know of religion is terrible misinformation.
and
Quote:
Why don't you at least start pondering this field more intently via reading a book you have left unread?
You make it very difficult for me to want to have conversations with you about this. For the record, I have read a large amount of the Qu'ran, as well as a large amount of history from various sources of the life of Muhammad. I have various thoughts about Islam, its founder, and what it was all about, but your blind faith to your religion makes you a full cup, and it would be worthless for me to attempt to pour more water into such a thing.
Allah has sent His final revelation, and His final prophet. Unfortunately, you have been poisoned by Christianity and propaganda. You know nothing of Islam, of the life of Muhammad, anything of the sort. What you think you know of religion is terrible misinformation.
and
Quote:
Why don't you at least start pondering this field more intently via reading a book you have left unread?
You make it very difficult for me to want to have conversations with you about this. For the record, I have read a large amount of the Qu'ran, as well as a large amount of history from various sources of the life of Muhammad. I have various thoughts about Islam, its founder, and what it was all about, but your blind faith to your religion makes you a full cup, and it would be worthless for me to attempt to pour more water into such a thing.
is that why you have demonstrated quite well that you do not understand Islam?
you can have thoughts on Islam. you can read Qur'an.
you can read the whole Qur'an in a day. that is not going to mean you have begun to take it in. especially in english without tafsir and sincerity in your heart.
>When I think of "god", personally, I think of it as the force behind all things. I think of a ship travelling across water. As the ship moves, it leaves waves in its wake, and those waves are our concept of the world, but the waves can't accurately describe the ship. Similarly so, it's possible our descriptions of the thing (in the sense of maths and science) may not accurately reflect the thing itself.
you are thinking of God differently than is illustrated by Qur'an.
God is separate from the creation, in your ignorance you have lead yourself to confusion.
moreover, if you can still see the waves... then you can make an inference of their creator.
>faith is intellectually dishonest
faith is intellectual submission. not submission of your intellect. it is flowing with the current instead of swimming against.
>Because I only believe in things that can be proven, and neither the existence nor nonexistence of God can be proven,
this is untrue, existence is plainly provable.
>your blind faith
not permitted in Islam. just shot yourself in the foot, you said you knew about islam.
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