i never used simply the phrase "spinning wheel": it was only you who used just that phrase. i said used falak.
leave it to the hypocrite.
greatsage wrote:
the word falak used is the same as for a spinning wheel. which is exactly how as shown.
meaning i expounded upon that: the word used was not "spinning" or "wheel", it was "falak"; again:
you are making an argument against something that is not qur'an, you are making a faulty argument against the translation and pretending that it is valid and that /simply/ the translation is what is there.
it is more than /just/ the translation that is there.
reiterated: it is you who used no more than "spinning wheel"; i never used only the phrase "spinning wheel": and by arguing with that phrase due to semantics and pettifoggery, you are not arguing with the qur'an, and are thus debunking nothing but your merit.
thus, the preceding sentence: "try making this argument in arabic and i will respond in arabic because i guarantee, then, you might be arguing against the actual qur'an instead of a straw man;"
and the point made with the latter sentence: "i said used falak.";
so you can see that as the conclusive contrast between what you did, and what i did.
good job showing just how simple two words can blow up in your face over negligence.
konr wrote:
The last post you made is every argument with this retard in a nutshell.
yup, that you are incapable of reading, to the extent you will boast your ignorance and haughtiness.
in short:
you don't actually have an argument at all. that is why you're being a pedantic imbecile. but you'd think with pedantry you'd actually bring the table to square, instead you show every ounce of your heedlessness.
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:20 am Post subject:
"make an argument in a language I know you don't know or you are wrong "
This just seems desperate. It means despite all the stupid shit that doesn't make sense in the qu'ran, you're going to write it all off as mistranslations. I had more to say about why your book is silly and the beliefs that these people had back then, and why you should use your logic and reason to not be so quick to believe in such things, but I won't bother if your attitude is to bury your head in the sand and act like you can only really debate the subject matter in its original language.
konr wrote:
The last post you made is every argument with this retard in a nutshell.
Pretty much, I don't know why I bother. I really do just want him to wake up and realize the bullshit that is the Qu'ran, I guess. I feel like he's smarter than to actually believe in it, or at least smart enough to leave it behind when he realizes the inaccuracies, but it seems like he's determined to jump through hoops to make bullshit make sense in his own world.
>"anything you say that isnt in Arabic doesn't count "
>"why don't you make a substantial argument "
what's the point of making my case if you're going to write it off because of its language?
Because language is your whole argument. You are invoking and exploiting what you perceive to be ambiguous. It is inherently fallacious and without substance.
You have not begun to offer any points whatsoever.
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:10 pm Post subject:
Inb4 "lmao, not reading that" / "successfully trolled"
Okay, this is my view of the Qu'ran, keeping in mind what my perspective is: that it is another religious document, like many before and after it, that is written by a man, and is not the divine word of God. It's written by someone and/or originally spoken by someone or group of someone's that are capable of being wrong.
The main thing I was joking about in regard to the Qu'ran before was the fact the it is written in such a way that has Earth as the center point of the Cosmos.
Quote:
Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."
And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask.
Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
Qu'ran 41:9 - 41:12
Before I get into my other point, here we see that Allah created the Earth in 8 days, which we already know is far from the truth. You might argue that he didn't actually mean "days" as we know them, but then to what end use the word "days" at all, because "days" exists as a metric for us based off the sun. There's also the chance that it's a mistranslations, and doesn't actually actually means days at all, but if that's not the case, then we can say for certain here that the Qu'ran is incorrect, and already can't be the infallible will of God.
But beyond that, Earth is the main sha-bang here. He creates Earth and all these wonderful things, then creates the heavens afterwards, which we know is wrong. The universe has been around for eons and eons before it finally spat out Earth thanks to dumb luck. Still, this thinking falls in line with the whole religion being geo-centric, and on that note:
Quote:
[39:5] He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving?
Each one running for a specified term. In this and many other passages about the two objects, there is no difference between the sun and the moon in terms of what they are. They are celestial bodies that Allah subdued and made run around the Earth. But the problem is that the Sun doesn't move a course around the Earth, the Earth is spinning and causing the illusion of the Sun passing. There's no way for whoever wrote or said this to know that during his time though, so he's left with the Sun and the Moon being celestial bodies around the Earth. If you want to argue that he was saying the Sun was orbiting something else, then you need to provide proof that's what he means. Otherwise, you are asking me to believe that a man 1400 years ago said that both the sun and the moon are in orbit in the same breath, but what he really meant was the moon was in orbit around the Earth and the sun was in orbit around a super massive black hole. Logic and reason don't allow me to believe that could be the case. If it were the case, why didn't he mention Earth's orbit, or the fact that the sun is not orbiting Earth, which was a popular belief at the time?
If that's not enough though, let's focus on Earth itself. From all I can tell from the Qu'ran, it seems as if all it thinks of Earth is being this large carpet pegged down by mountains.
Quote:
And We placed within the earth firmly set mountains, lest it should shift with them, and We made therein [mountain] passes [as] roads that they might be guided.
Qu'ran 21:31
Allah Almighty said: "Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs? Quran, 78:6-7"
And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;
Quran 16:15
And the earth - We have spread it and cast therein firmly set mountains and caused to grow therein [something] of every well-balanced thing.
====
“Do they not look at the camels, how they are created?
And at the heaven, how it is raised?
And at the mountains, how they are rooted and fixed firm?
And at the earth, how it is spread out?”
===
Qu'ran 88:17-20
It seems as though it pictures a large expanse of Earth all pegged down by mountains. We know that this is not what mountains do, they don't peg anything to anything else. If anything, they do the opposite and actually jut out from the Earth.
More importantly, they are not fixed firm, they are all in a constant flux, they just move far too slow for us to see, but if we could watch Earth's history over 30 seconds, we would see the mountains are far from a fixed and firm thing. More mountains are still being formed.
It also seems like he thinks the Earth is flat and spread out, and the the heavens are raised above it. This whole way of thinking seems to me to be very akin to the Firmament.
It would not be unusual for a biblical concept of Earth such as the one above to be similar to the one in the Qu'ran, because the Qu'ran is a spin on the original bible.
Why does it seem the like Qu'ran has an outdated (for our times) view of the world? Why has it not explicitly mentioned Earth's shape, rotation, and orbit? Why does it claim mountains to be firm still pegs when they are the result of still moving tectonic plates? Why doesn't it mention that the Sun isn't moving across our sky, but we are moving around an axis? Why doesn't it say what the Sun is moving around?
I argue that because you believe your book is incapable of being incorrect, you would rather create and believe extremely outlandish possibilities for your prophet which sheds him in a good light than to accept he is just a man, and is capable of being incorrect about the world.
I'd also argue if a single thing in the Qu'ran is incorrect (which seems to me to be the case), there's no reason to think it's the work of God. Keep searching for the truth, it isn't in the Qu'ran.
Inb4 "lmao, not reading that" / "successfully trolled"
Okay, this is my view of the Qu'ran, keeping in mind what my perspective is: that it is another religious document, like many before and after it, that is written by a man, and is not the divine word of God. It's written by someone and/or originally spoken by someone or group of someone's that are capable of being wrong.
The main thing I was joking about in regard to the Qu'ran before was the fact the it is written in such a way that has Earth as the center point of the Cosmos.
Quote:
Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."
And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask.
Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
Qu'ran 41:9 - 41:12
Before I get into my other point, here we see that Allah created the Earth in 8 days, which we already know is far from the truth. You might argue that he didn't actually mean "days" as we know them, but then to what end use the word "days" at all, because "days" exists as a metric for us based off the sun. There's also the chance that it's a mistranslations, and doesn't actually actually means days at all, but if that's not the case, then we can say for certain here that the Qu'ran is incorrect, and already can't be the infallible will of God.
But beyond that, Earth is the main sha-bang here. He creates Earth and all these wonderful things, then creates the heavens afterwards, which we know is wrong. The universe has been around for eons and eons before it finally spat out Earth thanks to dumb luck. Still, this thinking falls in line with the whole religion being geo-centric, and on that note:
Quote:
[39:5] He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving?
Each one running for a specified term. In this and many other passages about the two objects, there is no difference between the sun and the moon in terms of what they are. They are celestial bodies that Allah subdued and made run around the Earth. But the problem is that the Sun doesn't move a course around the Earth, the Earth is spinning and causing the illusion of the Sun passing. There's no way for whoever wrote or said this to know that during his time though, so he's left with the Sun and the Moon being celestial bodies around the Earth. If you want to argue that he was saying the Sun was orbiting something else, then you need to provide proof that's what he means. Otherwise, you are asking me to believe that a man 1400 years ago said that both the sun and the moon are in orbit in the same breath, but what he really meant was the moon was in orbit around the Earth and the sun was in orbit around a super massive black hole. Logic and reason don't allow me to believe that could be the case. If it were the case, why didn't he mention Earth's orbit, or the fact that the sun is not orbiting Earth, which was a popular belief at the time?
If that's not enough though, let's focus on Earth itself. From all I can tell from the Qu'ran, it seems as if all it thinks of Earth is being this large carpet pegged down by mountains.
Quote:
And We placed within the earth firmly set mountains, lest it should shift with them, and We made therein [mountain] passes [as] roads that they might be guided.
Qu'ran 21:31
Allah Almighty said: "Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs? Quran, 78:6-7"
And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;
Quran 16:15
And the earth - We have spread it and cast therein firmly set mountains and caused to grow therein [something] of every well-balanced thing.
====
“Do they not look at the camels, how they are created?
And at the heaven, how it is raised?
And at the mountains, how they are rooted and fixed firm?
And at the earth, how it is spread out?”
===
Qu'ran 88:17-20
It seems as though it pictures a large expanse of Earth all pegged down by mountains. We know that this is not what mountains do, they don't peg anything to anything else. If anything, they do the opposite and actually jut out from the Earth.
More importantly, they are not fixed firm, they are all in a constant flux, they just move far too slow for us to see, but if we could watch Earth's history over 30 seconds, we would see the mountains are far from a fixed and firm thing. More mountains are still being formed.
It also seems like he thinks the Earth is flat and spread out, and the the heavens are raised above it. This whole way of thinking seems to me to be very akin to the Firmament.
It would not be unusual for a biblical concept of Earth such as the one above to be similar to the one in the Qu'ran, because the Qu'ran is a spin on the original bible.
Why does it seem the like Qu'ran has an outdated (for our times) view of the world? Why has it not explicitly mentioned Earth's shape, rotation, and orbit? Why does it claim mountains to be firm still pegs when they are the result of still moving tectonic plates? Why doesn't it mention that the Sun isn't moving across our sky, but we are moving around an axis? Why doesn't it say what the Sun is moving around?
I argue that because you believe your book is incapable of being incorrect, you would rather create and believe extremely outlandish possibilities for your prophet which sheds him in a good light than to accept he is just a man, and is capable of being incorrect about the world.
I'd also argue if a single thing in the Qu'ran is incorrect (which seems to me to be the case), there's no reason to think it's the work of God. Keep searching for the truth, it isn't in the Qu'ran.
>Allah created the Earth in 8 days,
it directly says in your quote it was 2 days. it did not take 8 days for anything.
>ou might argue that he didn't actually mean "days" as we know them, but then to what end use the word "days" at all, because "days" exists as a metric for us based off the sun. There's also the chance that it's a mistranslations, and doesn't actually actually means days at all, but if that's not the case, then we can say for certain here that the Qu'ran is incorrect, and already can't be the infallible will of God.
qur'an explains this very well. try reading instead. relativity and worm holes are well defined.
>But beyond that, Earth is the main sha-bang here. He creates Earth and all these wonderful things, then creates the heavens afterwards,
except it says plainly they were created at the same time..
>"Do not the unbelievers see that the skies (space) and the earth (matter) were joined together (as one unit of creation) and we ripped them apart?" 21:30
>The universe has been around for eons and eons before it finally spat out Earth thanks to dumb luck.
which is exactly what the qur'an says...
in fact, it says this was done on the 4th day of 6 days. 4/6th of 13.77(age of universe) is about 4.5 billion years ago... when the planets were formed..
so bang-o, qur'an is right on the dot there, too
>Each one running for a specified term. In this and many other passages about the two objects, there is no difference between the sun and the moon in terms of what they are.
that is not true at all. learn what the word "each" means.
>But the problem is that the Sun doesn't move a course around the Earth, the Earth is spinning and causing the illusion of the Sun passing.
again, find one passage that says it is passing around the earth. you CAN'T, you are only pushing your misinterpretation onto it. the sun has its own orbit, as does each celestial body have its rounded course.
> If you want to argue that he was saying the Sun was orbiting something else, then you need to provide proof that's what he means.
i already fucking have. i posted it earlier, you just ignored it. sun blatantly orbits something much larger and not earth.
>If it were the case, why didn't he mention Earth's orbit,
because ALLAH DID MENTION IT! IT SAYS /ALL MOVE/, you are forcing your misinterpretation and deliberately misrepresenting the words of Qur'an.
>From all I can tell from the Qu'ran, it seems as if all it thinks of Earth is being this large carpet pegged down by mountains.
>And it is He who spread the earth and placed therein firmly set mountains and rivers; and from all of the fruits He made therein two mates; He causes the night to cover the day. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.
>He who spread the earth
The Arabic term “madda al-arda” translated “as stretched out” in the above verse, means “to be covered, spread out, stretched, pulled out, expanded or opened.”
that is because you are misinterpreting the qur'an. you are not a scholar and so literally every comment you make on this is completely unqualified and weightless.
>It seems as though it pictures a large expanse of Earth all pegged down by mountains. We know that this is not what mountains do, they don't peg anything to anything else.
LMFAO YOU ARE IN DENIAL HOLY SHIT
PEGS DON'T HAVE TO "PEG ANYTHING TO ANYTHING ELSE", THE IMAGE CLEARLY ILLUSTRATES THAT PEGS AND MOUNTAINS HAVE SIMILAR STRUCTURE.
blatantly pegged.
> If anything, they do the opposite and actually jut out from the Earth.
Mount Everest, the summit of which stands approximately 9 km above the surface of the Earth, has a root deeper than 125 km
YES, THEY JUT OUT 14 TIMES LESS THAN THEY PEG IN.
>More importantly, they are not fixed firm, they are all in a constant flux,
you mean like the rivers that are also firmly fixed?
you realise that firm just describes slow/little flux, right..?
>It also seems like he thinks the Earth is flat and spread out
he? who is he? again you show you do not know who is speaking in Qur'an. you have illustrated your ignorance multiple times...
[79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.
>It would not be unusual for a biblical concept of Earth such as the one above
that is not the biblical concept of the earth. in fact you linked to a mormon website. mormonism is inherently against qur'an. you are showing just how ignorant you are by trying to use this.
>Why does it seem the like Qu'ran has an outdated (for our times) view of the world?
it doesn't. you are just intentionally misinterpreting and misrepresenting as shown.
>Why has it not explicitly mentioned Earth's shape, rotation, and orbit?
it has. as shown.
THAT IS WHY ARABIC, MUSLIM SCHOLARS USED QUR'AN AND REACHED CONSENSUS ON THESE THINGS OVER A THOUSAND YEARS AGO.
> Why does it claim mountains to be firm still pegs
it doesn't say still. firm is the closest you can get. read it in arabic and get better understanding; obviously if they are fixed it has to be done by some action. tectonic plates are the action of choice.
> Why doesn't it say what the Sun is moving around?
it does
>I'd also argue if a single thing in the Qu'ran is incorrect (which seems to me to be the case),
you have only proven that it is correct. and that you are delusional, misguided, blind, and in denial.
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 2:51 pm Post subject:
Info: my previous quotes will be in blue
and yours in green
>it directly says in your quote it was 2 days. it did not take 8 days for anything.
I meant the universe/world, but in either case, it took well longer than 2 days, it took billions of years, so how is this factual?
>you might argue that he didn't actually mean "days" as we know them, but then to what end use the word "days" at all, because "days" exists as a metric for us based off the sun. There's also the chance that it's a mistranslations, and doesn't actually actually means days at all, but if that's not the case, then we can say for certain here that the Qu'ran is incorrect, and already can't be the infallible will of God. >qur'an explains this very well. try reading instead. relativity and worm holes are well defined.
Funny how you're quick to throw scripture out when you have it, but other times you just brush it off as "it's in there, read it." Show me the passage in which relativity and worm holes are well defined.
>But beyond that, Earth is the main sha-bang here. He creates Earth and all these wonderful things, then creates the heavens afterwards, except it says plainly they were created at the same time..
"Do not the unbelievers see that the skies (space) and the earth (matter) were joined together (as one unit of creation) and we ripped them apart?" 21:30
This is another case of you preferring your prophet to be infallible than allowing reason and logic to be triumphant. Earth and the heavens, if the heavens refer to outer space, we definitely not created at the same time. Earth took billions of years to form after the big bang. Besides that, let's look at the next two lines of that verse for contextual relevance.
Quote:
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?
And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.
And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!
So, here we don't get the impression he's talking about the big bang at all, but rather that he simply separated the sky from the Earth. As you've already said, it seems as though they were made at the same time (untrue). The idea that our world was created from the separation of the sky and the Earth is not an uncommon one for his time. There is a very similar story in the Egyptian mythos. There is no indication that he was aware that the big bang happened, billions of years went by, chemicals collected and cooled and life eventually, finally flourished and that we had years and years of planetary events before humans even showed it. It just shows Allah ripping the sky from the Earth, and suddenly it was so.
>The universe has been around for eons and eons before it finally spat out Earth thanks to dumb luck.
which is exactly what the qur'an says...
in fact, it says this was done on the 4th day of 6 days. 4/6th of 13.77(age of universe) is about 4.5 billion years ago... when the planets were formed..
so bang-o, qur'an is right on the dot there, too
Another example of "the quran says it" without stating where. The previous example has Allah ripping the sky and the earth apart (to you, the big bang somehow?), but where does that leave room for the billions of years in between? Especially when you assert that the heavens and the Earth were created at the same time. "4th of 6 days" is not equivalent to 9.6 billion years, it is equivalent to one day. He says the Earth was created in the first two days as was said in my original post, so this debunks your 4/6 lunacy even further.
>Each one running for a specified term. In this and many other passages about the two objects, there is no difference between the sun and the moon in terms of what they are. that is not true at all. learn what the word "each" means.
Okay, thanks for blatantly ignoring my next line just so you could attempt to make a point. My actual line:
In this and many other passages about the two objects, there is no difference between the sun and the moon in terms of what they are. They are celestial bodies that Allah subdued and made run around the Earth.
I understand they are not the same object. I'm not asserting that the moon is the sun according to the Qu'ran, I am saying that they are both just heavenly bodies that circle the Earth. The each run their own course around the Earth to the Qu'ran. In this way, he doesn't see that the Sun is not moving around us, but that the Earth is rotating itself.
> If you want to argue that he was saying the Sun was orbiting something else, then you need to provide proof that's what he means.
i already fucking have. i posted it earlier, you just ignored it. sun blatantly orbits something much larger and not earth.
You mean this: “I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah: -- ‘And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing ' (36.3Cool He said, ‘Its course is underneath "Allah's Throne.’" (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith 327)
It's course is under Allah's throne makes zero difference. If they look up and see the sky as the heavens, and Allah as above all the heavens, then the Sun's course is naturally underneath it. Are you really submitting the idea that "Allah's Throne" is the supermassive of our galaxy? You need strong evidence to back up that he meant that at all. You are working backwards and saying "because the sun goes around the black hole, and the Qu'ran can't be wrong, it means that he knew it all along, just never explicitly says it."
>If it were the case, why didn't he mention Earth's orbit, because ALLAH DID MENTION IT! IT SAYS /ALL MOVE/, you are forcing your misinterpretation and deliberately misrepresenting the words of Qur'an.
Show me that he had any idea that the Earth was a body in space with a course as well, because all evidence seems to point the him looking at Earth as the center of it all, so everything besides the Earth moves from his perspective.
>From all I can tell from the Qu'ran, it seems as if all it thinks of Earth is being this large carpet pegged down by mountains.
>And it is He who spread the earth and placed therein firmly set mountains and rivers; and from all of the fruits He made therein two mates; He causes the night to cover the day. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.
>He who spread the earth
The Arabic term “madda al-arda” translated “as stretched out” in the above verse, means “to be covered, spread out, stretched, pulled out, expanded or opened.”
that is because you are misinterpreting the qur'an. you are not a scholar and so literally every comment you make on this is completely unqualified and weightless.
Wow, you're pretty desperate to try to just discredit everything I say on the grounds of "you are not a scholar." Literally ad hominem. Beyond that, the concept of the Earth being "spread out/stretched/expanded falls perfectly in line with the concept of a flat earth plane that the heavens are raised above on.
>It seems as though it pictures a large expanse of Earth all pegged down by mountains. We know that this is not what mountains do, they don't peg anything to anything else. LMFAO YOU ARE IN DENIAL HOLY SHIT
PEGS DON'T HAVE TO "PEG ANYTHING TO ANYTHING ELSE", THE IMAGE CLEARLY ILLUSTRATES THAT PEGS AND MOUNTAINS HAVE SIMILAR STRUCTURE.
Good all caps, knee jerk reaction, yeah, I'm the one in denial. /s
There's one key aspect of your image you're leaving out, and that's the text that accompanies it. It reads "Profile of the Earth's crust (gray) and mantle (red) across the continents and ocean (verticle scale greatly exaggerated) Under every high area or mountain range the lighter crust projects downward into the heavier mantle, thus preserving isostatic equilibrium
So, for starters, they are not near as "peg-like" as that image seems, that is an extreme exaggeration. They are also not acting like pegs when it refers to isostatic equilibrium, just that they are floating on the mantle in accordance with the laws of physics. If your pegs are floating on something, they are neither fixed, nor firm, nor holding anything down, so in what way are they "pegs". Secondly, even if they weren't exaggerated, the simple concept that mountains have roots are not a new concept for that period of time. There are passages in the bible that talk about the roots of mountains, so I don't see anything impressive about the quran.
Moving on, the mountains don't hold the Earth in place in any way, as I've already said, the Earth is a constant flux. They are just the results of tectonic plates colliding which are still in motion today. How can they have been placed firmly if they are not placed in anything at all? The mountains are not truly set firm in any way, especially not in a way that a being of infinite understanding would understand. If there was a true god talking to whoever wrote/spoke this stuff, he would have watched the splitting of pangaea, the collisions of tectonic plates, the constant reforming of everything on Earth and would have said something akin to that level of understanding. If he did witness the entire history of Earth, and knew everything about it, he would never make the mistakes of calling the after effects of two plates colliding as they shift around on top of the mantle "firmly placed mountains."
>It also seems like he thinks the Earth is flat and spread out
he? who is he? again you show you do not know who is speaking in Qur'an. you have illustrated your ignorance multiple times...
So your argument is basically: "hur dur, how can it be HE, when it's GOD!!!!! you dumb IDIOT". As I already said, my arguments come from the perspective of someone who looks at the Qu'ran as a fallible book written by a man, or group of men, and anytime I say "he" I am referring to these men or group of men who wanted to start a religion. If you can't even wrap your head around the perspective of a skeptic, why are we having this conversation?
[79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.
Where are you getting this translation?
Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? Allah constructed it.
He raised its ceiling and proportioned it.
And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness.
And after that He spread the earth.
Quran 79:27-30
These lines all support the flat earth held down by mountains as paperweights model that I believe the qu'ran preaches. It also supports the old outdated model the the earth was created by the seperation of the sky and the earth (the raising of the ceiling). Nowhere does it support an "egg shape" earth.
>It would not be unusual for a biblical concept of Earth such as the one above that is not the biblical concept of the earth. in fact you linked to a mormon website. mormonism is inherently against qur'an. you are showing just how ignorant you are by trying to use this.
Uhhh...
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
It's fucking Genesis. It doesn't matter if it's from a Mormon website and you are against mormons or whatever, the Mormons believe in Genesis as well, so it's no surprise they have an image. Here's one from a Christian website though:
Granted, this site seeks to tell people that the Earth actually is flat, as the bible implies, but that doesn't discredit the point the the qu'ran is littered with ancient cosmology.
>Why does it seem the like Qu'ran has an outdated (for our times) view of the world? it doesn't. you are just intentionally misinterpreting and misrepresenting as shown.
Right, remember how I said you would just write it all off as mistranslations before? Just saying. Furthermore, how am I misrepresenting it when you claim that in 79:30 he made the Earth "egg shaped"?
>Why has it not explicitly mentioned Earth's shape, rotation, and orbit? it has. as shown.
The key word you're missing here is explicitly. I don't see anywhere here where it says anything like that, unless you expect me to go from your (false) claim that he made the Earth egg shaped and therefore you can assume it has a rotation and orbit.
> Why does it claim mountains to be firm still pegs it doesn't say still. firm is the closest you can get. read it in arabic and get better understanding; obviously if they are fixed it has to be done by some action. tectonic plates are the action of choice.
Okay, but they are not fixed, they just seem like they are from the perspective of the short time a man can live on Earth before he dies. A God would have no issue understanding that the mountains are not fixed, and would laugh at man for believing in so.
> Why doesn't it say what the Sun is moving around? it does
Again, "it just does" arguement. Not anywhere I can tell does it say anything about it. Your argument seems to be:
Quote:
“I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah: -- ‘And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing ' (36.3Cool He said, ‘Its course is underneath "Allah's Throne.’" (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith 327)
For starters, the sun has no destination, another incorrect idea from someone who is just a man and doesn't understand the true workings of the universe. We just give it the illusion of reaching some place because of our perspective. Then he says its course is underneath Allah's throne. From my perspective on the Qu'ran, the fits in perfectly with the flat earth, firmament theory and that Allah's throne sits above all of that, so naturally the Sun's course is underneath it. From what I can assume, and correct me if I am wrong, your argument is that by "Allah's throne" he meant Sagittarius A*? Do you not see why this seems like a huge stretch of the imagination to me?
>I'd also argue if a single thing in the Qu'ran is incorrect (which seems to me to be the case),
you have only proven that it is correct. and that you are delusional, misguided, blind, and in denial.
Take a long, deep look at your last 8 words and reflect on yourself.
I am taking the time to do this not because I hate islam (though it's mostly whatever as far as religions go), but because I remember you before you fell into this faith, and I know you're an intelligent person, and even though we've definitely been at odds in the past, I'd still hate to see your intellect go to waste on something like the Qu'ran. I know we give you crap for hopping religions, but I think it's better to entertain the ideas of many religions without subscribing to any in particular, because every single religion has flaws. The Qu'ran is not the sacred word of god, it's just words from false prophets who claims to know the the truth. If you want to continue to bury your head in the sand in the face of this evidence, then I'll give up trying to use reason and logic, because they would be a lost cause to you.
Last edited by HackOtaku on Tue May 03, 2016 4:57 pm; edited 4 times in total
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject:
teeigeryuh wrote:
why the fuck are you people even discussing with talix
as if you had the power to change his schizo mind
well, I don't think he's schizo, and regardless of that, it just seems like he found passages in the quran that certain people twisted to make it seem like Muhammad knew something divine, and as such, was convinced it could actually be the word of god, so I'm hoping that using reason in regards to what the quran really is will bring him back to the side of rationality. I know it's a long shot, but I still feel like trying. additionally, no one on the forum has pointed out the qurans imperfections, so I decided to.
too many issues in just one paragraph of yours, already pointed out your issues prior, knowing your tendency towards repetition of those issues shows how much of a waste of time it is to show your mistakes. maybe one day, but you're not worth it, because you have no knowledge on any of the subjects of islam, and you have shown you deliberately misinterpret even after the fact is presented.
That's fucking hilarious. Talix whenever I call you out you have a hissy fit when I don't give you concrete examples and citations and when HackOtaku literally quotes the Qur'an, repeatedly points out wording from multiple sources and refutes/debunks what you are saying in response very consistently you have the copout of saying he's not worth it and that he's deliberately misrepresenting.
You're actually past the point of no return. RIP Taylor.
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:35 am Post subject:
greatsage wrote:
too many issues in just one paragraph of yours, already pointed out your issues prior, knowing your tendency towards repetition of those issues shows how much of a waste of time it is to show your mistakes. maybe one day, but you're not worth it, because you have no knowledge on any of the subjects of islam, and you have shown you deliberately misinterpret even after the fact is presented.
Right, when you're ready to have an adult conversation about the teachings of Islam, you let me know.
In the meantime, consider this: You are the one who has deliberately misinterpreted the Qu'ran when you try to write off 79:30 as him saying the world is 'Egg-shaped'. You're a blasphemer if you need to change the meaning of your book to conform to modern science. If anything, you should argue that modern science is a lie from the West as an attempt to weaken Islam. There was no big bang, and the Earth isn't round, Allah seperated the sky from the Earth and that's all there is to the universe: the heavens and the Earth.
Here's the thing to consider: when you read the Qu'ran with the idea that it has the kind of cosmological thinking that was very prevalent at the time it was written, there is no challenge at all in proving this is the case. From God seperated the Earth and the sky (Rangi and Papa, nut and geb) to the flat earth theory (various religions), the Qu'ran comes time and time again to back up these old models of the Earth. You are the one deliberately twisted the Quran around to make it fit your agenda, whereas I am taking the scripture as having the original implied meaning.
The embryonic process described in the Qu'ran is also incorrect science, just so you know, but I hardly see the point in dismissing it at the moment when you've already just brushed off all the facts presented at you. You claim I have no knowledge of the subjects of Islam, and this isn't the case at all, I've studied various religions out of curiosity. Islam is one of the worst due to the book being very repetitive, and just retelling of older stories heard before, while throwing in "isn't God great" or some other form every 10 lines. You can dig around and try to find verses that reflect modern day science and say "Aha! The Qu'ran must be divine!", but the fact that it also includes incorrect science means that it's just another book, and there's nothing special about it.
You know, the Vedas correctly predicted heliocentricism long before Copernicus proved it, but we know that the Vedas is not holy text as well. You have to be 100 percent correct about everything to be a holy book.
Also, look into the life of Muhammad, a man who had sex with children, committed acts of highway robbery, and who committed genocide of people through beheading, and ask if this is really a model of virtue. Or are you banned from curiosity and seeking the real truth:
Quote:
O you who have believed, do not ask about things which, if they are shown to you, will distress you. But if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be shown to you. Allah has pardoned that which is past; and Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing.
A people asked such [questions] before you; then they became thereby disbelievers.
@konr: funny thing is, him giving you shit for not providing examples is the very reason I did so. His response to concrete proof is to bury his head in the sand and just say "you're wrong"
edit: also, you saying "i already pointed out your issues prior" doesn't work because all my points are counter points to all the supposed "issues" you pointed out. All you are really saying is my arguments are too thorough for you, which is hilarious because you were just talking shit about me not having any points, now I have too many.
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