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Trow Grandmaster Cheater
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Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 957
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ipivb wrote: | | Not so, because the population of humans has reached a point where it's too large for anymore evolution to take place. ... Instead of it being us that evolve, it's now just our books. Human evolution has reached homeostasis. |
Our books are helping us delay necessary evolution. Before, it was "Growing enough sickle cells to not die from malaria". Now, the evolutionary pressure lies on "growing a brain big enough for the kid to finish college". Also, "homeostasis" has no definition applicable to this context.
| ipivb wrote: | | humans are not going to physically evolve on a large scale in any way... |
At no point have humans stopped evolving. It is always happening, just not in the same direction. For example, not everyone is growing longer fingers, nor is everyone getting those "better brains". We are bound to have some idiots left who just won't be smart enough, and their kids will be just as dumb.
| ipivb wrote: | | Or these "studies" that show you learn better from writing something rather than typing it. These stories are created by an older generation, and because humans are resistant to change, they are apprehensive towards computers. |
You learn better by writing because you have to 1) consciously control the pen to get good handwriting, 2) involve more muscles in doing so, 3) take more time writing a word than to strike a couple of keys, all of which involving the same day-in-day-out muscle memory, and 4) you don't have spellcheck / grammar checkers. |
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Jorg hi I post too much
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Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 2276 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Actually to your last statement, typing and writing have different effects from your brain.
Typing is much more cognitive, like a different way of processing, like a newer language sort of. Its not because writing requires more effort. But your last statement "all of which involving the same day-in-day-out muscle memory" is right. As our writing cognition is much more accurate than typing. We can convert the visual effects of our writing into memory. We can't convert keystrokes into memory as efficiently. |
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ipivb Master Cheater
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Joined: 29 May 2010 Posts: 256
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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Studies showing that humans are still evolving are sketchy at best. We have been in our current form for about 200,000 years... the difference between then and now is simply our technology and culture. And our population. Because our population is so massive, any single successful mutation simply cannot progress through the entire species anymore, because we are completely scattered around the planet. If we haven't changed in the last 200k years, we're especially likely to not change in the next 200k, if not because of the reasons mentioned above, then because our culture and technology may either bring an end to our existence, or transform us into robots. So in one way or another, we are not going to naturally grow larger brains or get taller/shorter, etc.
In fact, our brains are as advanced as they can possibly be. If you increase the mass any further, you must also increase blood flow, which means bigger blood vessels, which means the neurons must be farther apart and will therefor be slower. We have reached the pinnacle of evolution (which is why it's utterly amazing to even be born in this time).
Genetic mutations that cause low IQ, mental illness, susceptibility to disease, (and even the exact opposites), etc will always happen, but because the population is so high and spread out, there is simply no way for those mutations to "catch on" to the entire population. Evolution has come to a halt.
It is quite arguable that you learn better by writing. I can see how it is easier to get stuck on a single idea, because as you write a sentence, it keeps repeating in your head. However, I definitely learn better by simply reading. Only a few years have passed since high school, and I vaguely remember anything at all. But now days, I constantly teach myself a wide variety of subjects, and every once in a while, I stumble across a topic that I remember hearing a little about in school. However now that I'm older, and now that I'm studying it out of my own curiosity, I understand it much better, and it's incredibly easier to retain what I learn.
It is my opinion that instead of using most of your brainpower to practice good handwriting and use more muscles, which has nothing to do with how energy equals mass times the speed of light, squared... it is far more productive to concentrate solely on the topic which you are writing about, and give it 100% of your attention.
Also I think exactly the opposite about spellcheckers. When you are writing on paper and you make a mistake... who is there to correct you, right then and there? At most, if you're in grade school, you might get your paper back the next day with some of the mistakes corrected... and that's only in English class. By then, the very idea that handwriting causes thoughts to sink deeper in your head, has actually worked against you, and now you have to struggle against your long-term memory and figure out which spelling is correct. With a spellchecker, your mistakes are corrected right then and there, and you immediately think "oh, that's how you spell it".
To bring this back on topic, I am confident that future generations will realize this, and ultimately come to pose more logical questions such as "what exactly is the benefit of organic foods vs those with man-made, yet safe fertilizers/pesticides/additives?"
| Jorg hi wrote: | Actually to your last statement, typing and writing have different effects from your brain.
Typing is much more cognitive, like a different way of processing, like a newer language sort of. Its not because writing requires more effort. But your last statement "all of which involving the same day-in-day-out muscle memory" is right. As our writing cognition is much more accurate than typing. We can convert the visual effects of our writing into memory. We can't convert keystrokes into memory as efficiently. |
I fail to see what you are implying. The accuracy of the thought process of writing is almost non-existent compared to typing. I stroke my keys with very high accuracy, much more accuracy than writing a sentence on a unlined sheet of paper. A better example is how easy it is to use poor grammar and make mistakes when writing. Because writing is so slow, you repeat the sentence in your head so many times that your brain actually gets mixed up. Just like when you verbally say the same word too many times in a row, it starts to sound awkward and your consciousness gets a little confused.
When I speak, my words flow much smoother than when I write. And when I type, my words flow incredibly smoother than when I speak.
Writing, as slow as it is, consumes far too much memory, and before you've learned much, what you have supposedly "learned so well" has been overwritten. Typing, in contrast, allows you to quickly express what is on your mind at exactly that moment, and more easily read back through it (and correct it).
I could type a much better essay than I could write, because of the simple reason that when writing... by the time I'm done writing a sentence or correcting an error, I've had at least 5+ good thoughts come and go. When I type, my mind is the bottleneck, and I can type words as fast as I can think them.
The biggest difference between typing vs writing is speed. Learning is caused by repeating the same idea, which is easier if you're writing slow. However, it is much more effective to be able to write as fast as you can think, and then continuously read over what you have wrote. That way you are still repeating the ideas in your head, but there are much more of them, and nothing is being left out.
As you can tell from the length of my posts (which I honestly try not to make them so long, but it's like impossible), I get a lot of practice/experience typing english. What would take me about 1-2 hours to write by hand, I could type up in a few minutes. If I typed slower, it would be almost just like writing. I'd spend more time thinking of the sentence I'm writing, while good ideas slip in and out of my mind. And in fact, I'd say it requires more muscle movement. When you write, you are using a few fingers and your wrist (all of which are controlled by the forearm). When you type, you are using all 10 of your fingers/thumb (9 for me since I hit the space bar with my right thumb), and they are moving in a much more coordinated way. Sure it is eventually hard-coded into your mind, but so is writing... writing is just as much of a "day in, day out" process as typing is. It is maybe once a month or less that I actually have to write something besides my signature... but still, I never have to focus on it, it just comes naturally like a day in, day out process... the only difference being that it's much slower. The same effect is achieved by typing slower, which no one would do, because then you'd forget about 90% of the things you want to say because you're still suck on the same sentence.
Last edited by ipivb on Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jorg hi I post too much
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Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 2276 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Thats exactly what I said. Typing is a more cognitive action than writing. Your brain has an instant memory of the key locations so its like second nature almost. The accuracy of writing doesn't matter unless you cannot read what your writing. What I'm saying is that typing is much quickly processed than writing only due to the physical limitations. You can still make 5+ ideas while writing.
Your brain is will remember what you see visually(your writing), than what you are typing, simply because its allowing your brain a much better tempo of recognizing. Think about it, when you're typing, you're thinking at a different level, much greater than speaking, because there is less delay in typing than vocal communication.
Pure Thought -> Reading/Visual -> Typing -> Speaking -> Writing
As you go down the list, the physical limit increases. As the physical limit increases, your Long Term Memory has a better chance remembering whats happening because its happening at a slower pace.
Though don't assume I'm talking about writing something 100 times, or trying to memorize. I'm talking about, remembering things processed by your working memory(on the spot system).
Edit:
Dude wtf! You edited it before I could respond! |
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ipivb Master Cheater
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Joined: 29 May 2010 Posts: 256
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Jorg hi, you always come up with really interesting things to say, but sometimes they just boggle my mind because I just have no idea what you are saying/getting at T_T
If typing involves less thought than writing (which it does for anyone who has typed constantly for years), then it is a less cognitive action. If you are a pecker then it is more cognitive than writing because you have to look down at the keyboard and look for the keys.
It is not the processing of the typing/writing itself that allows learning, it is the repeating thought. When you were younger, have you ever had trouble pronouncing a difficult word, and found it much easier after you repeated the word 15 times? Exact same process. We learn through repetition, and that's why writing is said to be better for learning that typing.
Every time I type anything, be it a post, a message, anything at all... I always re-read it (often, multiple times). Especially if it were an essay, or something important to me like these posts I'm making now. This act of repeating allows the ideas to sink deeper into our minds, which make them easier to remember.
How can you "still make 5+ ideas" while writing? If I were to write these posts instead of type them... well, they'd be much shorter and less informative because I'd forget 90% of my ideas while I am still writing the last one. Due to the physical limitations, you cannot remember every single thought that comes to you because they come quickly and it's hard to remember so many thoughts at once.
| Jorg hi wrote: | Pure Thought -> Reading/Visual -> Typing -> Speaking -> Writing
As you go down the list, the physical limit increases. As the physical limit increases, your Long Term Memory has a better chance remembering whats happening because its happening at a slower pace. |
I'd say it goes more like:
Reading -> Typing -> Thinking -> Speaking > Writing
When I type my replies, I am not typing constantly, nor at my full speed... because it takes me more time to think than it does to type.
Your long term memory doesn't learn ideas by remembering whats happening when you write, it learns by the pure thought of repeating the idea in your head while you write it. Have you ever tried to not think about anything? It's pretty hard isn't it? Your brain is constantly thinking. When you are writing, your are thinking a lot faster than you are writing, so what you are writing gets repeated.
When you type, it gets repeated less, but it's also much more likely that you will re-read over it, especially if it's something important to you. |
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Jorg hi I post too much
Reputation: 7
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 2276 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Reading -> Typing -> Thinking -> Speaking > Writing
Yes but!!! That is if you are learning new material! Not if you're creating it!!!
Oh and by Congitive I meant "Instant" Beast-like, which is in one of Albert Einsteins quotes proclaiming that reading is the lazy way of thinking! g2g!!!!!!! |
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Trow Grandmaster Cheater
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Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 957
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| ipivb wrote: | | When you are writing, your are thinking a lot faster than you are writing, so what you are writing gets repeated |
I think I'm agreeing your general idea, but you might want to clear this up... _________________
Get kidnapped often. |
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