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Altruism, does it exist?
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ipivb
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorg hi wrote:
So what is the motivation for me posting this below?:

BOUDSGKHDSFHKLSDHFIWE(*THP{([email protected]*&P^[email protected]#RJ#@Y([email protected]#*YTK(*@#P^[email protected]#*(<[email protected]#>


???


Edit:From viewing what you guys define 'selfish'
The idea of doing something for a specific motivation.

THEN everything is SELFISH!


The motivation to post it was to attempt to prove a point, providing a feeling of satisfaction.
The thing is, we are not saying everything is selfish. We are saying that nothing is selfless.

Being selfish generally means to take advantage of others for your own good, without regard to their well-being.

But being selfless means to perform an act that has no benefit to yourself, which in its strictest definition, is impossible for anything but a mindless robot programmed to do so.

elpacco wrote:
Personally, I believe that, in all of existence, there's no such thing as true randomness. Everything is only pseudo-random at most. All actions made are the product of previous events.


I highly agree. The only randomness that exists in physics is on a quantum level. But even if our decisions weren't random, and weren't predetermined... what else could they be? The future is either random, or it is determined based on the past. This leaves very little room for what we refer to as "free will".
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Seergaze3
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

possible, you'll find that person on the streets after 3 days though...
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Receding
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ipivb wrote:
Jorg hi wrote:
So what is the motivation for me posting this below?:

BOUDSGKHDSFHKLSDHFIWE(*THP{([email protected]*&P^[email protected]#RJ#@Y([email protected]#*YTK(*@#P^[email protected]#*(<[email protected]#>


???


Edit:From viewing what you guys define 'selfish'
The idea of doing something for a specific motivation.

THEN everything is SELFISH!


The motivation to post it was to attempt to prove a point, providing a feeling of satisfaction.
The thing is, we are not saying everything is selfish. We are saying that nothing is selfless.

Being selfish generally means to take advantage of others for your own good, without regard to their well-being.

But being selfless means to perform an act that has no benefit to yourself, which in its strictest definition, is impossible for anything but a mindless robot programmed to do so.

elpacco wrote:
Personally, I believe that, in all of existence, there's no such thing as true randomness. Everything is only pseudo-random at most. All actions made are the product of previous events.


I highly agree. The only randomness that exists in physics is on a quantum level. But even if our decisions weren't random, and weren't predetermined... what else could they be? The future is either random, or it is determined based on the past. This leaves very little room for what we refer to as "free will".

Your definition of "selfish" is wrong
concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
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Jorg hi
I post too much
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ipivb wrote:
Jorg hi wrote:
So what is the motivation for me posting this below?:

BOUDSGKHDSFHKLSDHFIWE(*THP{([email protected]*&P^[email protected]#RJ#@Y([email protected]#*YTK(*@#P^[email protected]#*(<[email protected]#>


???


Edit:From viewing what you guys define 'selfish'
The idea of doing something for a specific motivation.

THEN everything is SELFISH!


The motivation to post it was to attempt to prove a point, providing a feeling of satisfaction.
The thing is, we are not saying everything is selfish. We are saying that nothing is selfless.

Being selfish generally means to take advantage of others for your own good, without regard to their well-being.

But being selfless means to perform an act that has no benefit to yourself, which in its strictest definition, is impossible for anything but a mindless robot programmed to do so.

elpacco wrote:
Personally, I believe that, in all of existence, there's no such thing as true randomness. Everything is only pseudo-random at most. All actions made are the product of previous events.


I highly agree. The only randomness that exists in physics is on a quantum level. But even if our decisions weren't random, and weren't predetermined... what else could they be? The future is either random, or it is determined based on the past. This leaves very little room for what we refer to as "free will".


@ipivb - So only programmed robots can be selfless? Thats a load of jibber jabber!!

Cells control our body, so we are programmed, just like robots. Razz
Computer fragments control robots. And even a small error can create a big change!

Which shows that we don't have selfwill logically, as our cells control our brains.!!!

Which proves my point that humans can be selfless!
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Geri
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Cells control our body, so we are programmed, just like robots.


Are You really comparing the human brain which is "programmed" for survival to computer programs which are created by humans to accomplish tasks?
Ehm, eh...
So let's talk about the psychology of alien racies that we did not even discover yet.

Quote:
Computer fragments control robots. And even a small error can create a big change!


Yes, I have seen it in a movie. A thunder has struck the robot and He became a living person. It was awesome. I see this thing happening every day.

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Jorg hi
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what if the human brain is more advanced, to let you know, the human brain can store 100 Tera Bytes of 'neuronic' information. Enough to create a superior AI bot.

Yes, that struck of lightning can just bring enough force and the right location to move a fragment of Computer code to the right location causes a workable change.

I agree luck does not exist, but 'luck' perceived by humans as, "unlikely" exists.

....just a theory.
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Geri
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:02 pm    Post subject: This post has 1 review(s) Reply with quote

Quote:
So what if the human brain is more advanced


It is not about being more advanced or not but about the purpose of the program.

Robots are programmed to do tasks but they are not programmed for survival. They just serve us.

The human brain however is reponsible to keep You alive, which means it has a "program" for self-defense (reflexes) and other stuff which is needed for survival.

So a robot can be selfless, especially if the program is 2 line of codes.
But the human brain cannot operate selflessly or humanity would just die out.

Or to be more exact:
Will a program terminate itself when it is ordered to do so? Sure.
Will You do the same without a second thought? Well hopefully not.

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Jorg hi
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol you have a good point. But I'm not gonna kill myself to prove you wrong Razz
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Geri
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, that's what makes You a human. It is in Your genes to survive and take efforts for the survival of Your race. And if You think about it, being totally selfless would consume all of Your "resources" and consume You too.

For example if You donate all of Your money, You will starve and die. If You keep the balance between Your needs and other's needs, You are much more successful on the long terms. It is not just natural, but even more effective to think about Yourself too. A totally selfless person would be consumed by the environment immediately.
I don't see why is this bad. Even though the process involves considering Your benefits, it is more efficient than the other possibility. Being completely selfless is probably not the best choice for anyone. You can give more if You think about Your well being too.
Complete selflessness would work only in a world where everyone is completely selfless too. Then You would give and You would get and everything is ok. But yeah, the world is not like that at the moment. Smile

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If you are interested in any of my crappy articles/tutorials about CE and game hacking, you can find them here:
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ipivb
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Receding wrote:
Your definition of "selfish" is wrong
concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others


Did you even read my post?

Dictionary:
"seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others"

Mine:
"Being selfish generally means to take advantage of others for your own good, without regard to their well-being."

I'm actually surprised at how dead-on my definition was. Your argument is invalid.

Jorg hi wrote:
@ipivb - So only programmed robots can be selfless? Thats a load of jibber jabber!!

Cells control our body, so we are programmed, just like robots. Razz
Computer fragments control robots. And even a small error can create a big change!

Which shows that we don't have selfwill logically, as our cells control our brains.!!!

Which proves my point that humans can be selfless!


Cells controlling our body is exactly the reason why we can't be selfless. Cells are controlled by the laws of physics, which on a macroscopic scale, has no randomness. If something isn't random, then it is determined by its past (in other words, predetermined).

If everything is predetermined, then essentially there is no such thing as absolute free will. We are not free to "make decisions" in the strictest sense, because given the exact same situation, the outcame will always be exactly the same (save for the not-well-known, seemingly random behavior of radioactive particles on a quantum level).

To be selfless would definitely require "absolute free will", because it involves a conscious decision to do something that is without benefit. But on a cellular level, like you said, free will certainly doesn't exist in any form. And because cells control our mind/body, they have no free will to make conscious decisions that don't benefit them.

I'm going in circles here, but to just to explain it a little more clearly... due to the nature of how a brain works, there is no ability for it to perform an action that doesn't have a reward. That reward can be anything from something large like monetary gain, or something as small as a sense of compassion (tossing a dollar to a bum on the street).

All actions have both negative and positive consequences. These are balanced by values. For example, doing drugs may cost money and ruin your health, but if we value the "positive" consequences (the high) more than the negative, we will do them. If doing drugs also hurts your family/friends, then it may be considered selfish. On the other hand, not doing drugs is not selfish, but it is also not selfless, because the reason you're not doing them is because you value the reward of being sober and healthy.

The reason you give that dollar to a bum is because you value the sense of compassion more than the dollar. This is why no one gives a million dollars to a single bum: we would value that money a lot more than the sense of compassion we would get from donating it.

However, if you have enough money, and you donate it to a large enough group, then the value of compassion may outweigh the psychological value of the money. Although this is a poor example, because large sums of money is typically not donated solely for the sense of satisfaction, but rather for the reputation reward which in turn leads to more money (or recognition).

So in essence, anything that makes us happy is a reward. And it's not possible to be absolutely indifferent to something. Therefor, in order to be truly selfless, you'd have to do an act that causes you unhappiness in both the short term and long term. This just doesn't happen. Even when Jesus died on the cross, he wasn't angry about what he did... he was happy, and he valued that happiness more than his life. Therefor, although he wasn't selfish, he wasn't selfless, either.

Geri wrote:
Quote:
Cells control our body, so we are programmed, just like robots.


Are You really comparing the human brain which is "programmed" for survival to computer programs which are created by humans to accomplish tasks?
Ehm, eh...
So let's talk about the psychology of alien racies that we did not even discover yet.

Quote:
Computer fragments control robots. And even a small error can create a big change!


Yes, I have seen it in a movie. A thunder has struck the robot and He became a living person. It was awesome. I see this thing happening every day.


Haha, best movie ever! Long live Johnny-Five... I can't for the third movie!!!

Humans are slightly comparable to computer programs, however. We are programmed to behave in predictable ways. The difference is that we are "programmed" by nature.

Which means that even computer programs are programmed by "nature", if you think deep enough. If we were all whales, there wouldn't be any computer programs at all. If we didn't have pre-programmed emotions like guilt and compassion, computer programs would probably all be viruses Laughing

Computers and humans do have something in common, however. Neither of them can violate the laws of physics, and science tells us that the laws of physics are predictable. That is why a computer program will always do the same thing, exactly as it's programmed to. And although humans are "programmed" by nature, we also follow this law... we cannot do anything except what we are "programmed" to. For example, we can't be selfless, because we are programmed to only things for our own happiness. The reason we are programmed this way is because if we weren't, we wouldn't be around. It's called natural selection.

Jorg hi wrote:
So what if the human brain is more advanced, to let you know, the human brain can store 100 Tera Bytes of 'neuronic' information. Enough to create a superior AI bot.

Yes, that struck of lightning can just bring enough force and the right location to move a fragment of Computer code to the right location causes a workable change.

I agree luck does not exist, but 'luck' perceived by humans as, "unlikely" exists.

....just a theory.


Not sure what you're getting at, but let me make it a little more clear. It doesn't matter how "advanced" we are... on an atomic scale, everything is predictable. If you throw a tennis ball at the ground and it bounces in a certain direction, it is never going to go any other direction than it did originally, provided that all conditions are exactly the same (gravity, wind resistance, etc). Therefor, the tennis ball is predictable, because like everything else, it obeys the laws of physics.

Luck does exist. Not as a measurable quantity that affects a random course of action, but as a term to describe the seemingly special outcome of multiple events.

When you really look at how big the universe is (literally infinite), you will start to get a picture of how insignificant we really are. Every action that we believe is "special", is actually infinitely common.

Back to your original point, the thing about AI is that it is predictable, just like everything. The only way it couldn't be predictable is if it were based off the random decay of radioactive particles on a quantum level... then it would be, well, random (which in a sense, is still predictable... for example: "it will be random").

The complexity of living organisms is the most overused argument by creationists. Unfortunately, they don't listen when you point out to them that things which are artificially created are actually far more simple than things which are naturally created.

As an example, if humans were to create a perfect robot, we probably wouldn't make it out of carbon-based cells with a finite lifespan and so many complex parts. We would make it out of steel and microchips, which are more simple. They get the job done, with nothing wasted. This is a complex example, however. A more simple example is a simple wall.

If humans want to build a wall, they use bricks of the same size, in a pattern that is both efficient and simple. Nature can build walls, too, but it is by "accident"... driftwood on a beach can be viewed as a "wall", but it is very complex. It serves many purposes, but it is not efficient. It takes a long time to build, it's not sturdy, but most importantly... it is complex. Versus the artificially built wall, which is simple. Therefor if humans were artificially created, we would probably be more simple, and not so complex.

Back to the subject of altruism, this is important because it proves the point of natural selection. Altruism can't exist because natural selection prevents it from doing so. Natural selection is based of benefits, which lead to survival. As advanced humans, we have the ability to value some benefits more than others, and this gives partial explanation to the phenomena of free will. But on the smallest scale, our actions are still driven by motivations, which arise from desires, which are fueled by benefits.

Geri wrote:
Quote:
So what if the human brain is more advanced


It is not about being more advanced or not but about the purpose of the program.

Robots are programmed to do tasks but they are not programmed for survival. They just serve us.

The human brain however is reponsible to keep You alive, which means it has a "program" for self-defense (reflexes) and other stuff which is needed for survival.

So a robot can be selfless, especially if the program is 2 line of codes.
But the human brain cannot operate selflessly or humanity would just die out.

Or to be more exact:
Will a program terminate itself when it is ordered to do so? Sure.
Will You do the same without a second thought? Well hopefully not.


This is basically what I just said, but less detailed. Humans are programmed by nature, and the reason we exist today is because we have "selected" benefits that nurture our survival. We are advanced enough that we can make "decisions" that actually don't benefit our survival, but benefit our happiness. But still to be considered selfless, you must gain no happiness (reward) from a decision.

Jorg hi wrote:
Lol you have a good point. But I'm not gonna kill myself to prove you wrong Razz


That's because you couldn't. The only way you could kill yourself to prove him wrong is if you were genetically deformed, in which case you wouldn't produce either, therefor your genetically deformed genes that allow you to be "sefless" would not carry on into future generations. This is why selfless-ness can't exist in any known form of life... it violates the basic principles of survival.
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Jorg hi
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:28 am    Post subject: This post has 1 review(s) Reply with quote

I have no argument left.
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Receding
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ipivb wrote:
Receding wrote:
Your definition of "selfish" is wrong
concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others


Did you even read my post?

Dictionary:
"seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others"

Mine:
"Being selfish generally means to take advantage of others for your own good, without regard to their well-being."

I'm actually surprised at how dead-on my definition was. Your argument is invalid.

Dead-on?
Your definition is closer to manipulation:
to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
Stop being childish and saying my argument is invalid, the reality is that the definition of selfish is not "taking advantage of others", it is "caring about yourself".
Your definition of selfish is not dead on, it is drastically different.
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elpacco
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ipivb wrote:
Jorg hi wrote:
So what is the motivation for me posting this below?:

BOUDSGKHDSFHKLSDHFIWE(*THP{([email protected]*&P^[email protected]#RJ#@Y([email protected]#*YTK(*@#P^[email protected]#*(<[email protected]#>


???


Edit:From viewing what you guys define 'selfish'
The idea of doing something for a specific motivation.

THEN everything is SELFISH!


The motivation to post it was to attempt to prove a point, providing a feeling of satisfaction.
The thing is, we are not saying everything is selfish. We are saying that nothing is selfless.

Being selfish generally means to take advantage of others for your own good, without regard to their well-being.

But being selfless means to perform an act that has no benefit to yourself, which in its strictest definition, is impossible for anything but a mindless robot programmed to do so.

elpacco wrote:
Personally, I believe that, in all of existence, there's no such thing as true randomness. Everything is only pseudo-random at most. All actions made are the product of previous events.


I highly agree. The only randomness that exists in physics is on a quantum level. But even if our decisions weren't random, and weren't predetermined... what else could they be? The future is either random, or it is determined based on the past. This leaves very little room for what we refer to as "free will".
Don't take this the wrong way, but I think of free will as merely an illusion. It's a kind of concept that doesn't really exist. All experiences will have some effect, almost always minor, on the decisions you will make in the future. For example, reading this right now will have an effect upon where you go out for lunch today, or whether you even will at all. One could say that you have the choice, but ultimately your decision is going to be predetermined.

The past causes you to become the person you are and causes you to make the choices you make.

Jorg hi wrote:
So what is the motivation for me posting this below?:

BOUDSGKHDSFHKLSDHFIWE(*THP{([email protected]*&P^[email protected]#RJ#@Y([email protected]#*YTK(*@#P^[email protected]#*(<[email protected]#>


???


Edit:From viewing what you guys define 'selfish'
The idea of doing something for a specific motivation.

THEN everything is SELFISH!
Think of it this way: had you never read this post and got into a discussion with us and read what we've been writing, you would have never posted that.
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FangBanger wrote:
What is the best way for a lv19 Soldier to solo Sledge on Borderlands?
Shoot him.
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Jorg hi
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. But Time is relative O_O. Stuff doesn't happen from pre-existing things.

It has already happened. Everything has happened xD Instantly.
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elpacco
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorg hi wrote:
Yes. But Time is relative O_O. Stuff doesn't happen from pre-existing things.

It has already happened. Everything has happened xD Instantly.
Exactly, time is relative. Certain things can happen before others.

I really don't see where you're going with this. Are you trying to say that no events can precede others?

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[AM]Misery wrote:

FangBanger wrote:
What is the best way for a lv19 Soldier to solo Sledge on Borderlands?
Shoot him.
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