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Flyte
Peanuts!!!!
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 Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| konr wrote: | | Fair enough, if the demoman was alone, but a soldier running in a straight line (straight forward) he's easy pickings for a sniper or another class. |
I find this commonly spouted fallacy hilarious. So now only the Demoman has a team backing him up?
| konr wrote: | | The game is called Team Fortress for a reason, things balance out with a team to back you up. |
Just like how the whole point of Half Life is to play through with only half your life?
With that reasoning it would be okay to have class that can kill everything on the map instantly. Nothing wrong with it because both teams can use it, right? |
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Stylised
Grandmaster Cheater
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| A half-life is a term used to define the length of life a molecule or set of molecules while being irradiated. |
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Flyte
Peanuts!!!!
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Rage wrote: | | A half-life is a term used to define the length of life a molecule or set of molecules while being irradiated. |
It's the time span in which it takes one half of a group of nuclei to radioactively decay.
You missed the point, but nice try I suppose. 3/10 |
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br0l0ck
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| stop arguing over theoretical situations that each of you keep changing just to make the other one wrong |
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1929394839292057839194958
Grandmaster Cheater Supreme
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| Flyte wrote: | | konr wrote: | | Fair enough, if the demoman was alone, but a soldier running in a straight line (straight forward) he's easy pickings for a sniper or another class. |
I find this commonly spouted fallacy hilarious. So now only the Demoman has a team backing him up?
| konr wrote: | | The game is called Team Fortress for a reason, things balance out with a team to back you up. |
Just like how the whole point of Half Life is to play through with only half your life?
With that reasoning it would be okay to have class that can kill everything on the map instantly. Nothing wrong with it because both teams can use it, right? |
Wait, what? I'm saying that the majority of times there's at least one more player with another, you aren't often on your own and you get attacked by a solly with the equalizer. I'm agreeing with what you are saying, but giving you a situation in which what you say is partially invalidated. How is this even an argument?
I didn't say anything like that, stop exaggerating everything I say and don't put words into my mouth. I'm saying that when I play TF2, there's always at least one other person that can see me, more often than not a sniper, too. Also there's a reason for melee weapons and a demoman could pull out his melee weapons and 1hkill him just the same, if the solly has low hp. It's just who can hit the other faster. Also pipe bombs knock you back, and are often shot in medium quantities. This means the soldier (if running in the same direction) would be completely screwed anyway. And if he changes course and moves enough for the demo to miss completely, the demo can still just aim a little bit to the left/right, if he hasn't moved a lot. If the soldier has moved a lot, that would mean the demo could easily have enough time to kill him, or sticky jump out of the way and kill him.
Your arguments are filled with shit about how the solly could easily kill you if he ran straight at you, but that's simply not true for anyone that has a tiny bit of skill. |
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Flyte
Peanuts!!!!
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| konr wrote: | | Wait, what? I'm saying that the majority of times there's at least one more player with another, you aren't often on your own and you get attacked by a solly with the equalizer. I'm agreeing with what you are saying, but giving you a situation in which what you say is partially invalidated. How is this even an argument? |
I was referring to the fact that people claim something is balanced if you have another team mate, while completely ignoring the fact that the other person could too have a team mate. This makes any discussion pointless.
Person A: "The Heavy sucks compared to the Demoman. He can easily be killed in situations that should favor the Heavy".
Person B: "Yeah, but if the Heavy has a Medic then the Demoman dies."
What Person B fails to grasp is that the Demoman, by his own logic, could very well have a Medic of his own.
| konr wrote: | | I didn't say anything like that, stop eggadurating everything I say and don't put words into my mouth. I'm saying that when I play TF2, there's always at least one other person that can see me, more often than not a sniper, too. Also there's a reason for melee weapons and a demoman could pull out his melee weapons and 1hkill him just the same, if the solly has low hp. |
See above.
| konr wrote: | | It's just who can hit the other faster. Also pipe bombs knock you back, and are often shot in medium quantities. This means the soldier (if running in the same direction) would be completely screwed anyway. And if he changes course and moves enough for the demo to miss completely, the demo can still just aim a little bit to the left/right, if he hasn't moved a lot. If the soldier has moved a lot, that would mean the demo could easily have enough time to kill him, or sticky jump out of the way and kill him. |
If. If. If. If. If. If. If. If.
Is this concept so hard to understand that I need to draw a diagram? Soldier A has high health and approaches <class> B with equalizer, <class> B damage Soldier A on the way in, Soldier A kills <class> B with next to no health left. For the average player, this is a no-win situation.
This is generally what happens when kills occur with the equalizer, not the "5HP-hero-run across a wide open field in plain view" situation that is commonly vomited out.
| Flyte wrote: | | Also, to the people who say it's easy to kill something with 5 HP: He doesn't have to start at 5HP - he can take damage on the way in. It's still easy to kill them if you know what you're doing, it was just a small detail you missed. |
Reading comprehension. |
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1929394839292057839194958
Grandmaster Cheater Supreme
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:27 am Post subject: |
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Alright, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that there are faults in what you're saying.
The soldier isn't OP, and wasn't OP before the nerf. I understand exactly what you're saying about the soldier being damaged on the way in, then killing the person, but unless the soldier has already gotten very close, the player would be able to run away, shooting the soldier and knocking him back (like I said, because unless he's a heavy (not a 1 hit kill anyway and he's screwed if the heavy starts damaging him before he gets to him), an engie (not a direct combat class, therefore shouldn't be balanced with him anyway) or a few others, you could easily knock him back/kill him quick enough before he gets to you.)) then you should easily be able to win in this situation. The only exception is if he's already got very close, in which case if knocking him back won't work, then he deserves the kill in the first place and you shouldn't have let him get that close. Also he probably won't even be very damaged in that case.
Soldier A has high health and approaches <class> B with equalizer, <class> B damages Solder A on the way in, Soldier A is knocked back/killed in almost every instance of this situation.
Also, please don't patronise me and treat me as if I'm an idiot, because I'm not. I didn't pull one of those 'no true scotsman' things you mentioned, because I evaluated every possible situation, not just a new one that makes me right. |
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Steve03416634
Grandmaster Cheater
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| konr wrote: | Alright, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that there are faults in what you're saying.
The soldier isn't OP, and wasn't OP before the nerf. I understand exactly what you're saying about the soldier being damaged on the way in, then killing the person, but unless the soldier has already gotten very close, the player would be able to run away, shooting the soldier and knocking him back (like I said, because unless he's a heavy (not a 1 hit kill anyway and he's screwed if the heavy starts damaging him before he gets to him), an engie (not a direct combat class, therefore shouldn't be balanced with him anyway) or a few others, you could easily knock him back/kill him quick enough before he gets to you.)) then you should easily be able to win in this situation. The only exception is if he's already got very close, in which case if knocking him back won't work, then he deserves the kill in the first place and you shouldn't have let him get that close. Also he probably won't even be very damaged in that case.
Soldier A has high health and approaches <class> B with equalizer, <class> B damages Solder A on the way in, Soldier A is knocked back/killed in almost every instance of this situation.
Also, please don't patronise me and treat me as if I'm an idiot, because I'm not. I didn't pull one of those 'no true scotsman' things you mentioned, because I evaluated every possible situation, not just a new one that makes me right. |
Did you evaluate this situation:
The equalizer is an upgrade. |
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1929394839292057839194958
Grandmaster Cheater Supreme
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| Brolock~ wrote: | | konr wrote: | Alright, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that there are faults in what you're saying.
The soldier isn't OP, and wasn't OP before the nerf. I understand exactly what you're saying about the soldier being damaged on the way in, then killing the person, but unless the soldier has already gotten very close, the player would be able to run away, shooting the soldier and knocking him back (like I said, because unless he's a heavy (not a 1 hit kill anyway and he's screwed if the heavy starts damaging him before he gets to him), an engie (not a direct combat class, therefore shouldn't be balanced with him anyway) or a few others, you could easily knock him back/kill him quick enough before he gets to you.)) then you should easily be able to win in this situation. The only exception is if he's already got very close, in which case if knocking him back won't work, then he deserves the kill in the first place and you shouldn't have let him get that close. Also he probably won't even be very damaged in that case.
Soldier A has high health and approaches <class> B with equalizer, <class> B damages Solder A on the way in, Soldier A is knocked back/killed in almost every instance of this situation.
Also, please don't patronise me and treat me as if I'm an idiot, because I'm not. I didn't pull one of those 'no true scotsman' things you mentioned, because I evaluated every possible situation, not just a new one that makes me right. |
Did you evaluate this situation:
The equalizer is an upgrade. |
An upgrade to the piece of shit that is the shovel, yes. |
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Steve03416634
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| konr wrote: | | Brolock~ wrote: | | konr wrote: | Alright, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that there are faults in what you're saying.
The soldier isn't OP, and wasn't OP before the nerf. I understand exactly what you're saying about the soldier being damaged on the way in, then killing the person, but unless the soldier has already gotten very close, the player would be able to run away, shooting the soldier and knocking him back (like I said, because unless he's a heavy (not a 1 hit kill anyway and he's screwed if the heavy starts damaging him before he gets to him), an engie (not a direct combat class, therefore shouldn't be balanced with him anyway) or a few others, you could easily knock him back/kill him quick enough before he gets to you.)) then you should easily be able to win in this situation. The only exception is if he's already got very close, in which case if knocking him back won't work, then he deserves the kill in the first place and you shouldn't have let him get that close. Also he probably won't even be very damaged in that case.
Soldier A has high health and approaches <class> B with equalizer, <class> B damages Solder A on the way in, Soldier A is knocked back/killed in almost every instance of this situation.
Also, please don't patronise me and treat me as if I'm an idiot, because I'm not. I didn't pull one of those 'no true scotsman' things you mentioned, because I evaluated every possible situation, not just a new one that makes me right. |
Did you evaluate this situation:
The equalizer is an upgrade. |
An upgrade to the piece of shit that is the shovel, yes. |
Okay;
Thanks for proving my point that the equalizer, unlike every single other unlockable item, is a pure upgrade and has no downsides.
This is the main problem with equalizer and you're just fucking ignoring it. |
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Flyte
Peanuts!!!!
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| konr wrote: | | Alright, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that there are faults in what you're saying. |
| konr wrote: | | The soldier isn't OP, and wasn't OP before the nerf. I understand exactly what you're saying about the soldier being damaged on the way in, then killing the person, but unless the soldier has already gotten very close, the player would be able to run away, shooting the soldier and knocking him back (like I said, because unless he's a heavy (not a 1 hit kill anyway and he's screwed if the heavy starts damaging him before he gets to him), an engie (not a direct combat class, therefore shouldn't be balanced with him anyway) or a few others, you could easily knock him back/kill him quick enough before he gets to you.)) then you should easily be able to win in this situation. |
A random critical from an equalizer could kill an over-healed Heavy in a single shot (thankfully I prefer nocrit games). The weapon was, and in some respects still is, a knife with a 360 degree back stab range that magically gives a Soldier almost the speed of a Scout. Combine this with claustrophobia inducing map geometry and the ever present woes of lag compensation and you get a weapon that does nothing but cause rage (in more ways than one, ironically). This isn't a problem with the Soldier, but the weapon.
| konr wrote: | | The only exception is if he's already got very close, in which case if knocking him back won't work, then he deserves the kill in the first place and you shouldn't have let him get that close. Also he probably won't even be very damaged in that case. |
Therein lies another problem. The Soldier is not a CQC class - this infringes on the rolls of other classes.
| konr wrote: | | Also, please don't patronise me and treat me as if I'm an idiot, because I'm not. I didn't pull one of those 'no true scotsman' things you mentioned, because I evaluated every possible situation, not just a new one that makes me right. |
I'll consider it.
----------------
Honestly, what the equalizer should do is literally equalize. When you hit a target with the weapon, they should take damage (or receive healing) so they have the same amount of health as you. Therefore it isn't actually possible to kill anything with the weapon, but it opens up a host of interesting tactical opportunities.
Keep the speed boost, of course. |
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Trucido
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, might buy the game for the items.
Sam and Max is funny, albeit annoying to play.
_________________
I'm out. |
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sponge cake recipe
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Trucido wrote: | Hmm, might buy the game for the items.
Sam and Max is funny, albeit annoying to play. |
If you're not going to play it that's fucking stupid.
:| |
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Steve03416634
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Viral wrote: | | Trucido wrote: | Hmm, might buy the game for the items.
Sam and Max is funny, albeit annoying to play. |
If you're not going to play it that's fucking stupid.
:| |
What else do you want him to do, buy a World of Warcraft mount for 25 USD? |
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sponge cake recipe
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Brolock~ wrote: | | Viral wrote: | | Trucido wrote: | Hmm, might buy the game for the items.
Sam and Max is funny, albeit annoying to play. |
If you're not going to play it that's fucking stupid.
:| |
What else do you want him to do, buy a World of Warcraft mount for 25 USD? |
What? Also lolhorse.
But I'm just saying, buying another game just to get ingame items that everyone will have anyway (making them pointless and hated) is a ridiculous idea. Unless ofcourse you were planning to buy it anyway / might actually enjoy it. |
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