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Channel GannoK
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are obsessed with my trolling of your religion, it's like you've adopted me as your saving grace of your boring, sad lives, which is why you read, reply, and anticipate my comments, typing gloves on, your lube warmed up, coffee ready for your big brain text dumps and reputations and refutations, only to be made fun of for believing and defending something unverifiable, essentially a waste of everyone's time, because no ones opinions have changed, like at all. Ever. Especially for a white Muslim convert. It's hilarious and wonderful. It's like having a cake and eating it too.

Religion is dumb, makes you close your mind if you want to be a "real believer" and you're dumb for believing in anything that which you cant use the scientific method to prove. This is coming from a place of love, i swear.
a bunch of you are fucking degenerates and I wouldn't respect you even if I got paid to

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TheIndianGuy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Channel GannoK wrote:
Religion is dumb, makes you close your mind if you want to be a "real believer" and you're dumb for believing in anything that which you cant use the scientific method to prove. This is coming from a place of love, i swear.
a bunch of you are fucking degenerates and I wouldn't respect you even if I got paid to


to make a blanket claim that religion is dumb is equal to blindly believing everything a certain religion promotes. in your case, your religion is the scientific method.

whose gonna tell kyle that science doesn't have all the answers? that science often confirms what religious teachings have been saying for thousands of years. psychology often confirms what individuals have thought and shared for many years. just because you are not educated in the lingo, does not mean you cannot come to the same conclusion. you're confusing education for intelligence.

you are partially right though, your religion of the scientific method has closed off your mind
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greatsage
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Channel GannoK wrote:
You guys are obsessed with my trolling of your religion, it's like you've adopted me as your saving grace of your boring, sad lives, which is why you read, reply, and anticipate my comments, typing gloves on, your lube warmed up, coffee ready for your big brain text dumps and reputations and refutations, only to be made fun of for believing and defending something unverifiable, essentially a waste of everyone's time, because no ones opinions have changed, like at all. Ever. Especially for a white Muslim convert. It's hilarious and wonderful. It's like having a cake and eating it too.

Religion is dumb, makes you close your mind if you want to be a "real believer" and you're dumb for believing in anything that which you cant use the scientific method to prove. This is coming from a place of love, i swear.
a bunch of you are fucking degenerates and I wouldn't respect you even if I got paid to


i really tried to read your first sentence but there were so many commas i could only think of the first page of this thread.

the scientific method was fathered by a muslim, and that was because of what islam implores us to do -- such as contemplate the universe, life and creation, and to acquire knowledge. go learn your history instead of chronically hiding behind complacent ineptitude.

>especially for a white muslim convert
in islam we revert, because we believe everyone is born muslim. islam is not a race-oriented religion, you are reflecting your own ignorance here.

>believing and defending something unverifiable
islam and the life of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ are verifiable historically, rationally, logically, critically, and even scientifically.
you would know this if you ever read or possessed any knowledge of what you're speaking about. whose mind is closed, again?

>makes you close your mind if you want to be a "real believer"
some religions may seem this way, but in reality this is not allowed in islam. so trying to criticise islam like this is a hasty generalisation that demonstrates your ignorance which you founded it upon.

>you're dumb for believing in anything that which you cant use the scientific method to prove
islam is not contrary to the scientific method whatsoever. and there are simply things that you can not apply the scientific method to know, so you are sounding quite immature.

the teaching of a skeptical, evidence-based assessment of all claims without exception is fundamentally an issue of intellectual integrity -- scientific inquiry is for the field of science. it is clear what you are only capable of doing is avoiding intellectual discourse.
we are under no obligation to believe anything half so silly as that science is the only road to truth. we can reasonably argue that there are lots of ways to establish truth that are not scientific.
in many ways, the scientific method is flawed and not very capable on its own. there are many other methodologies; critical thought, socratic method, aristotelian logic, experiential, etc. to establish truth.

you are basically saying that there was no way to assess or determine truth before the scientific method was invented.

>essentially a waste of everyone's time, because no ones opinions have changed, like at all.
i can guarantee you that i have witnessed numerous peoples' opinions and beliefs change over time here. you do not represent society yourself, especially being so unaware of yourself and others.
moreover, many have increased in knowledge through our discourse together, and so what could you be so opposed to ?

in fact, there are more people who are coming to islam than any other religion. and that includes atheists and christians. so really, you are believing many things you can use the scientific method to disprove; you have fallen on your own sword of witless criticism.

you don't seem to possess the capacity to act or rise above immaturity, so it is no wonder you could never respect your peers.

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Channel GannoK
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe everyone is born a child molesting predator, but they were converted by the sick norms of western society. We should revert and convince others, because god wills it and it's for a noble cause. Thank goodness I have a infallible prophet to believe in that reaffirms my belief of poorly constructed fairy tales, for his words are the tangible truths in our world.

This is my belief, and I wish to revert you back to the true human nature.open your mind bro

Also, just because the human understanding of science, the laws of physics, and the scientific method is limited to what we know to begin with, doesnt make it flawed. Sure there are things in life that happen that we cant explain or understand. But we can try, and do tests.

You cant test getting 72 virgins in the afterlife, and you cant test reincarnation, or going to hell. To argue that because the scientific method cant test or verify or deny these claims, that it must be false is fucking retarded.

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Last edited by Channel GannoK on Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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greatsage
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Channel GannoK wrote:
I believe everyone is born a child molesting predator, but they were converted by the sick norms of western society. We should revert and convince others, because god wills it and it's for a noble cause. Thank goodness I have a infallible prophet to believe in that reaffirms my belief of poorly constructed fairy tales, for his words are the tangible truths in our world.

This is my belief, and I wish to revert you back to the true human nature.open your mind bro


so as admitted you can never approach the door of genuine intellectual discourse. as usual, you can only spew your own imaginary crap. gg getting wrecked kid, there's no coming back from this

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Channel GannoK
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greatsage wrote:
Channel GannoK wrote:
I believe everyone is born a child molesting predator, but they were converted by the sick norms of western society. We should revert and convince others, because god wills it and it's for a noble cause. Thank goodness I have a infallible prophet to believe in that reaffirms my belief of poorly constructed fairy tales, for his words are the tangible truths in our world.

This is my belief, and I wish to revert you back to the true human nature.open your mind bro


so as admitted you can never approach the door of genuine intellectual discourse. as usual, you can only spew your own imaginary crap. gg getting wrecked kid, there's no coming back from this

I just described the Islamic prophet, without using his name. Isnt that supposed to make you muslims feel better or something? I'm being honest and accurate, and I'm only using your logic. I'm applying your teachings to my studies

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greatsage
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Channel GannoK wrote:
greatsage wrote:
Channel GannoK wrote:
I believe everyone is born a child molesting predator, but they were converted by the sick norms of western society. We should revert and convince others, because god wills it and it's for a noble cause. Thank goodness I have a infallible prophet to believe in that reaffirms my belief of poorly constructed fairy tales, for his words are the tangible truths in our world.

This is my belief, and I wish to revert you back to the true human nature.open your mind bro


so as admitted you can never approach the door of genuine intellectual discourse. as usual, you can only spew your own imaginary crap. gg getting wrecked kid, there's no coming back from this

I just described the Islamic prophet, without using his name. Isnt that supposed to make you muslims feel better or something? I'm being honest and accurate, and I'm only using your logic. I'm applying your teachings to my studies


you didn't , though. none of that applies to the prophet Muhammad

it is scientifically confirmed that the natural human nature inclines towards belief in a singular Creator.

Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, says in the Qur'an
[Qur'an 30:30] "So [Prophet ], as a man of pure faith, stand firm and true in your devotion to the religion. This is the natural disposition God instilled in mankind..."

there is in fact psychological, sociological, and anthropological evidence to support this notion
Oxford University psychologist Dr. Olivera Petrovich, an expert in psychology of religion, conducted some studies concerning the psychology of the human being and God's existence. she discovered that infants are hard-wired to believe in God, and that atheism has to be learned.

Prof. Justin Barret also did some research by looking at the behaviour and claims of children. He concluded that the children believed in what he calls "natural religion". This is the idea that thre is a personal being that created the entire universe.

Prof. Justin Barret wrote:
"Scientific research on children's developing minds and supernatural beliefs suggests that children normally and rapidly acquire minds that faciltate belief in supernatural agents...
Not long after their first birthday, babies appear to understand that agents, but not natural forces or ordinary objects, can create order out of disorder...
'Who is the Creator?' Children know that people are not good candidates...
children are born believers of what I call natural religion"


secondly, Islam teaches that Allah guides whom He wills -- we have no choice in the matter, and there is no compulsion in the religion. muslims do not believe that we convert/revert others, or convince them of anything.

as Allah says in the Holy Qur'an:
[Qur'an 10:42-43] Some of them do listen to you: but can you make the deaf hear if they will not use their minds? Some of them look at you: but can you guide the blind if they will not see?

thirdly, Islam teaches that Muhammad was infallible when it came to delivering the message, but we acknowledge he was a man, as all prophets are, and so true perfection is with Allah. what Allah perfected in Muhammad was good character and religion. we accept that all prophets are capable only of minor mistakes and sins.

lastly, your claim before the first comma is simply false, and is a recent islamophobic lie that has no merit.
yaqeeninstitute.org/arnold-yasin-mol/aisha-ra-the-case-for-an-older-age-in-sunni-hadith-scholarship/
irfi.org/articles/articles_151_200/ayesha_age_the_myth_of__a_prover.htm


on the contrary, the wife of the Prophet Muhammad, , is estimated to have been around the age of 18-19 at her nikah, and this is verifiable against multiple sources.
she even came from a previous marriage, and was a physically and intellectually mature woman when her marriage to the Prophet Muhammad was consummated.

it seems, as usual, your claims are entirely your own contrivance. way to embarrass yourself

it is very funny, too, that you testify to have no knowledge from the Qur'an, but go on to argue against it as "fairy tales", and poorly constructed -- when you could actually bring no evidence or argument to support your claim, and you never will. the Qur'an is considered a masterpiece of literacy; it is flawless, and the highest standard of grammar, with no corruption or contradiction.
but even funnier is how this book you berate, over 1400 years ago, predicted your behaviour precisely:

[Qur'an 6:25] Even if they saw every sign, they still would not believe in them; so whenever they come to you, they argue with you. Those who disbelieve say: 'These are only legends by primitive people.'

Channel GannoK wrote:
To argue that because the scientific method cant test or verify or deny these claims, that it must be false is fucking retarded.

so you admit that to verify claims entirely based on science solely, or to say claims are false based solely on a lack of scientific validation, is an error.
this is precisely what Dustin and I have been saying, thank you for finally getting on the same page.
there are more methodologies for verifying information than simply science.

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HackOtaku
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greatsage wrote:
HackOtaku wrote:
Quote:
John 8:52-58
The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am saying I have seen him"



callingchristians.com/2014/02/27/the-problem-of-john-858-for-christianity/
facebook.com/callingchristians/videos/430336287543595/
bismikaallahuma.org/bible/i-am-what-i-am-a-bible-commentary/


there is absolutely no claim to divinity here.


the original Greek word for “I AM” in John 8:58 is ‘egoo eimi’ or in Greek ‘egw eimi’.
while the original Greek in Exodus 3:14 is 'Egoo Eimi Ho Oon', so there can be no doubt that Jesus is not quoting or repeating it.

from context we can see from Jeremiah 1:5
Quote:
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”


before birth the prophets are set apart and known. as it was not a claim to divinity to be known prior to birth for Jeremiah, it can not possibly be as such for Jesus, peace be upon them both.

that is why the various translators of the New Testament had translated John 8:58 into many ways and had not stick to merely translating it into “I AM”:

Quote:
1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.
1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Complete Bible: An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by J?rg Zink.
1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.
1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.
1999: “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!” New Living Translation by Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.


furthermore, you are saying that immediately after Jesus 'claims divinity' -- that he flees for his life.

Quote:
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am saying I have seen him"
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.


are you saying the Almighty God has to hide in fear for His life? or worse-- that God can only make claim to His authority through vague, implicit statements?


There is zero confusion about what He said.

https://www.aomin.org/aoblog/1990/01/01/purpose-and-meaning-of-ego-eimi-in-the-gospel-of-john/

Why would they try stoning Him if He wasn't claiming to be who He is?


Channel GannoK wrote:
You guys are obsessed with my trolling of your religion, it's like you've adopted me as your saving grace of your boring, sad lives, which is why you read, reply, and anticipate my comments, typing gloves on, your lube warmed up, coffee ready for your big brain text dumps and reputations and refutations, only to be made fun of for believing and defending something unverifiable, essentially a waste of everyone's time, because no ones opinions have changed, like at all. Ever. Especially for a white Muslim convert. It's hilarious and wonderful. It's like having a cake and eating it too.

Religion is dumb, makes you close your mind if you want to be a "real believer" and you're dumb for believing in anything that which you cant use the scientific method to prove. This is coming from a place of love, i swear.
a bunch of you are fucking degenerates and I wouldn't respect you even if I got paid to


I went from being an atheist who hated Christianity for the same reasons you do to being a Christian myself, so you never know. Although it wasn't from anything here on CEF.
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greatsage
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackOtaku wrote:
greatsage wrote:
HackOtaku wrote:
Quote:
John 8:52-58
The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am saying I have seen him"



callingchristians.com/2014/02/27/the-problem-of-john-858-for-christianity/
facebook.com/callingchristians/videos/430336287543595/
bismikaallahuma.org/bible/i-am-what-i-am-a-bible-commentary/


there is absolutely no claim to divinity here.


the original Greek word for “I AM” in John 8:58 is ‘egoo eimi’ or in Greek ‘egw eimi’.
while the original Greek in Exodus 3:14 is 'Egoo Eimi Ho Oon', so there can be no doubt that Jesus is not quoting or repeating it.

from context we can see from Jeremiah 1:5
Quote:
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”


before birth the prophets are set apart and known. as it was not a claim to divinity to be known prior to birth for Jeremiah, it can not possibly be as such for Jesus, peace be upon them both.

that is why the various translators of the New Testament had translated John 8:58 into many ways and had not stick to merely translating it into “I AM”:

Quote:
1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.
1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Complete Bible: An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by J?rg Zink.
1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.
1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.
1999: “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!” New Living Translation by Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.


furthermore, you are saying that immediately after Jesus 'claims divinity' -- that he flees for his life.

Quote:
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am saying I have seen him"
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.


are you saying the Almighty God has to hide in fear for His life? or worse-- that God can only make claim to His authority through vague, implicit statements?


There is zero confusion about what He said.

Why would they try stoning Him if He wasn't claiming to be who He is?


hey so, how about you actually address what was said ? there is no confusion -- it is quite clear that Jesus wasn't claiming to be God;

the Jews clearly in your own quotation thought he was demon possessed, and previously had killed prophets sent to them -- are you saying they were killed because of claims to divinity, too?

no, rather, the Jews corrupted the religion for their own gain, and should have submitted to Jesus who condemned them on their hypocrisies and chauvanism, but did not give him the right as the Messiah and authority he deserved.

to excuse their behaviour, they plotted to murder him under the punishment for blasphemy, a false accusation. Jews know that God is Ever-living, so there is no way a Jew would try to kill God.

and clearly, Jesus did not quote Exodus 3:14. that is why there are numerous translations that do not ignore the context and insert a translation based onshoehorning biblical doctrine.
furthermore, you can't even prove that jesus made the statement. so the argument is silly to begin with, but clearly he made no claim to divinity. if you want to argue a clear point, then go for it, and start by addressing what was clearly said.

in their view, Jesus was lying against both God and Abraham, and debasing them with allegations of involvement with whom they accuse as demon possessed. it makes sense then that the jews would want to silence one lying against Abraham and God.

there is no sensible approach to arrive at this being a claim to divinity, and you haven't presented one.

furthermore, the one who said that phrase in Exodus 3:14 is regarded under the trinity to be the father. but the trinity holds that the father, son, and holy spirit are 3 separate and distinct personalities. if you are saying that Jesus is claiming to be who the Father is claiming to be, then you are violating the trinity by holding these two personalities together.

jw.org wrote:
I have been: The opposing Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming that he had “seen Abraham,” although, as they said, Jesus was “not yet 50 years old.” (Joh 8:57)
Jesus’ response was to tell them about his prehuman existence as a mighty spirit creature in heaven before Abraham was born. Some claim that this verse identifies Jesus with God. They argue that the Greek expression used here, e·goʹ ei·miʹ (rendered “I am” in some Bibles), is an allusion to the Septuagint rendering of Ex 3:14 and that both verses should be rendered the same way. (See study note on Joh 4:26.)
In this context, however, the action expressed by the Greek verb ei·miʹ started “before Abraham came into existence” and was still in progress.
It is therefore properly translated “I have been” rather than “I am,” and a number of ancient and modern translations use wording similar to “I have been.”
In fact, at John 14:9, the same form of the Greek verb ei·miʹ is used to render Jesus’ words:
“Even after I have been with you men for such a long time, Philip, have you not come to know me?”
Most translations use a similar wording, showing that depending on context there is no valid grammatical objection to rendering ei·miʹ as “have been.”
(Other examples of rendering a present tense Greek verb using a present perfect tense verb are found at Lu 2:48; 13:7; 15:29; John 15:27; Ac 15:21; 2Co 12:19; 1Jo 3:8.)
Also, Jesus’ reasoning recorded at Joh 8:54, 55 shows that he was not trying to portray himself as being the same person as his Father.


HackOtaku wrote:
old HackOtaku aka 'bad jussy' wrote:
I look at Christianity like I look at most religions: as an allegory. I went through my atheist phase of outright rejected Christianity as "a bunch of lies", and started researching other religions while completely avoiding Christ, but circling back around now, I fully believe it has a lot of merit, even if it is "all lies".

I went from being an atheist who hated Christianity for the same reasons you do to being a Christian myself, so you never know. Although it wasn't from anything here on CEF.


too bad you can't be fair and apply this treatment equally to islam; researching and personally verifying what is true to you, especially with fair, rational, considerate analysis.
you are opposed to the idea of rationally approaching the subject or learning of it; you find islam only worth scorn and mockery, just as you did your current beliefs.
maybe you can share with us what was so inspirational about christianity or Jesus, peace be upon him

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HackOtaku
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the Jews clearly in your own quotation thought he was demon possessed, and previously had killed prophets sent to them -- are you saying they were killed because of claims to divinity, too?


I'm saying they specifically picked up stones after what, to them, what have been their interpretation as a blasphemous claim "I am", which is claiming divinity.



Quote:
no, rather, the Jews corrupted the religion for their own gain, and should have submitted to Jesus who condemned them on their hypocrisies and chauvanism, but did not give him the right as the Messiah and authority he deserved.


Agreed.



Quote:
to excuse their behaviour, they plotted to murder him under the punishment for blasphemy, a false accusation. Jews know that God is Ever-living, so there is no way a Jew would try to kill jesus.


I don't understand this. You tell me they plotted to kill Him, and also say there's no way they would plot to kill him? Or do you mean that a true Jew would have recognized Jesus as the messiah and wouldn't have plotted against him? I don't follow.

Quote:
and clearly, Jesus did not quote Exodus 3:14. that is why there are numerous translations that do not ignore the context and insert a translation based on forcing biblical doctrine.


His claim of I am tells them that He is eternal, He has always been, just as God the Father has always been, and that he personally knows The Father, unlike the Pharisees.

https://carm.org/jesus-god


Quote:
furthermore, you can't even prove that jesus made the statement. so the argument is silly to begin with, but clearly he made no claim to divinity. if you want to argue a clear point, then go for it, and start by addressing what was clearly said.


Well, by that logic, you can't "prove" Muhammad said anything at all. What do you mean I can't prove Jesus made that statement?


Quote:

there is no sensible approach to arrive at this being a claim to divinity, and you haven't presented one.


Except I have. You can deny it all you like, but it is very clear what He was saying when He said it. Not only that, but the entire account of His life points to this, not just this one instance, but all that He did.

Quote:
furthermore, the one who said that phrase in Exodus 3:14 is regarded under the trinity to be the father. but the trinity holds that the father, son, and holy spirit are 3 separate and distinct personalities. if you are saying that Jesus is claiming to be who the Father is claiming to be, then you are violating the trinity by holding these two personalities together.


He does not say He is the Father, He says He is the Son. I did not claim He claimed to be the Father. He is the literal Son of God.

Quote:
too bad you can't be fair and apply this treatment equally to islam; researching and personally verifying what is true to you, especially with fair, rational, considerate analysis.
you are opposed to the idea of rationally approaching the subject or learning of it; you find islam only worth scorn and mockery, just as you did your current beliefs.
m


In your mind, until I claim that Islam is the truth, I haven't researched it with fair, rational analysis. I might as well say "Too bad you can't be fair and apply your treatment of Islam to Christianity."
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greatsage
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackOtaku wrote:
Quote:
the Jews clearly in your own quotation thought he was demon possessed, and previously had killed prophets sent to them -- are you saying they were killed because of claims to divinity, too?


I'm saying they specifically picked up stones after what, to them, what have been their interpretation as a blasphemous claim "I am", which is claiming divinity.


but he didn't, and you haven't made clear how they could possibly come to that conclusion.

you can not compare what is said in Exodus 3:14 to what is said in John 8:58, without coming to any conclusion other than these being two different phrases.
here, a beggar who was healed by Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.
Quote:
(John 9:9) "Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."


"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58
and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"
The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58

this is an appropriate translation, especially given it does not say what is said in Exodus 3:14

Quote:
I don't understand this. You tell me they plotted to kill Him, and also say there's no way they would plot to kill him? Or do you mean that a true Jew would have recognized Jesus as the messiah and wouldn't have plotted against him? I don't follow.

i meant to say, as I edited -- there is no way a Jew would try to kill God.

Quote:
His claim of I am tells them that He is eternal, He has always been, just as God the Father has always been, and that he personally knows The Father, unlike the Pharisees.

okay so, now you are not just changing what was said, but you are even putting many more words into Jesus' mouth. that is very dishonest. Jesus did not say "I have always been just like God", Jesus said "I have seen Abraham before". this is clear in the context of what was quoted.

Quote:
Well, by that logic, you can't "prove" Muhammad said anything at all. What do you mean I can't prove Jesus made that statement?

no, that is just not true.
we do not know who authored the gospel manuscripts where statements are attributed to Jesus. Jesus' language was aramaic, and the gospels are all in koine greek. there is no record of transmission whatsoever, and even what records are in the bible, which are scant, they are often contradictory to each other.

we have LETTERS from the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, which he sent to others. we have verified reports of what he said.
islamic-awareness.org/hadith/ulum/hadsciences.html
this statement you have made is fundamentally not true, and you can not apply the same criticism to Muhammad ﷺ because we have authentic reports from eyewitnesses and his companions -- you do not have ANYTHING OF THE SORT TO TESTIFY ABOUT JESUS, most all of what you are discussing comes from decades to CENTURIES after Jesus, while we have transmissions from many accounts on what the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ said and did. so we have written and oral chains of transmission that are from the very lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, and a record of the chain of narration.

the followers of Muhammad ﷺ were writing down and memorising his statements and actions DURING HIS LIFETIME, and this was NOT done by Jesus' followers in regards to Jesus.
since the followers of Jesus were not writing down the things he said and did during his life, the stories about Jesus go back to oral traditions in circulation about him.

where did the Gospel writers get their stories of Jesus from? there are compelling reasons for thinking that the authors of our Gospels were not eyewitnesses to Jesus’s life (none of them claims to be). they were living in different countries, in different communities, speaking different languages, decades later. And so how did they get their stories?

that is, people told and retold the stories, until the Gospel writers heard them and wrote them down. after Jesus' disappearance, or even before, people told these stories to others, who told these stories to still others. this oral circulation accounts of Jesus' life went on for decades until someone bothered to write down the stories.

this is why so many historians have problems who want to know what happened in the life of Jesus -- we don't have written accounts from his own day, only later accounts written by people who had heard the stories that had been in circulation for so many years.

conversely, with Muhammad ﷺ , we have testimony and written record from those who were eyewitnesses, who saw his miracles performed, who heard him speak, and from the generations after those people. and we have a clear record of who those people were, and how they transmitted what they witnessed, and a science for authenticating statements and identifying fabrications. if the same standard was applied to the gospel, you would be lucky to find even one statement you could reliably trace back and authenticate to being said by Jesus, peace be upon him.

the best evidence for Jesus is in the Qur'an.

Quote:
greatsage wrote:
there is no sensible approach to arrive at this being a claim to divinity, and you haven't presented one.
Except I have. You can deny it all you like, but it is very clear what He was saying when He said it. Not only that, but the entire account of His life points to this, not just this one instance, but all that He did.


oh so you can translate koine greek, and better than all of the several professors and scholars who gave the translations I provided that are in express disagreement with your conclusion? you have actually not given any justification, you have simply said "it is such" and that affirmation ad nauseum is not sufficient to prove divinity.
it is not very clear, that is why I have provided multiple translations and commentary that refutes your claim properly.
as for "the entire account of his life points to this, all that he did", no it does not. Jesus worshiped God, and taught to worship God. Jesus said God is greater than him, and you even say Jesus died. God is eternally living, and God is not a man. at least in my faith, Jesus has not died. and in the Law of Moses, the Messiah can not die without completing his mission.

what you are doing here is making an incredulous appeal you can not begin to justify -- the life of Jesus makes clear that he was a prophet, the Messiah, a pious servant of God. He prayed to God, ate, slept, and was born of a woman. God is perfect, free of need, and does not grow tired or sleep.

Quote:
He does not say He is the Father, He says He is the Son. I did not claim He claimed to be the Father. He is the literal Son of God.

the phrase "son of God" is used all over the bible, and is never literal. the Jews used it as a colloquialism that means a pious, righteous servant of God, and even Jesus attests to this. there are literally sons by the tons in the bible, and none of it is literal. the Jews understood this.

from jewsforjudaism:
    in Judaism, and to Jews of the time of Jesus, the Messiah was not God but a human being.
    The term Son of God is often used in the New Testament in connection with Jesus, but this is not an assertion that Jesus was God.
    The term Son of God is used frequently in the Hebrew Bible to refer to the people of Israel (e.g., Deuteronomy 14:1, Isaiah 1:2) or the anointed king of Israel (2 Samuel 7:14, Psalm 2:7, 89:27).
    In many instances where Son of God occurs in the Hebrew Bible, of which we have given only a small sample above, the term clearly means “elected or chosen by God.” By no means does this mean that the people of Israel or the king of Israel is God in any sense.


Quote:
In your mind, until I claim that Islam is the truth, I haven't researched it with fair, rational analysis. I might as well say "Too bad you can't be fair and apply your treatment of Islam to Christianity."

here you go, exercising your obsession with putting words in someone's mouth again.

there are many non-muslims who have sincerely researched Islam, and you are not one of them. you have markedly demonstrated on multiple occasions to have no proper knowledge of the religion, of our beliefs, or of Qur'an, so i am speaking out of judgment of your plain actions.
you can not say this to me about Christianity because I am more learned than you in Christianity. and you have demonstrated yourself to be ill-equipped on the subject. as I said, I was raised in a Christian home. what you don't know is I was put in christian schools all my life, my family and I grew up intimately involved with the church, and all services. even after submitting to monotheism, I studied the Bible and Christianity again, thoroughly, and after submitting to Islam, I still continued to study it.
i have years of belief in this scripture behind me, years of practice, and you can not fairly compare my knowledge of your religion with your knowledge of mine. in the time you have went to Christianity, there is no way you could have assumed thorough knowledge of Islam or Christianity.
still, i don't make appeals to this education, but I make clear arguments in my assertions. i have thoroughly refuted that John 8:58 is not a restatement of Exodus 3:14.
i have also thoroughly refuted your assertion that we can not know what Muhammad ﷺ said -- we have a reliable chain of transmission, and collections from contemporaries & eyewitnesses.
i have also established that there is no sufficient method for determining the validity of what is attributed to Jesus in the New Testament.

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HackOtaku
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://goingfarther.net/common-questions/is-jesus-god/
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackOtaku wrote:

greatsage wrote:
hey so, how about you actually address what was said ?

literally all of those points have been crushed:
youtube.com/watch?v=ExL30-ZpBC4
bismikaallahuma.org/jesus/is-jesus-god/

i guess you are admitting you are not capable of addressing what was said, or making a rebuttal of your own beyond parroting "but it says i am and i am means god right??"

i have made a clear argument -- showing that the two statements in greek are not equivalent. you have not done anything but shoehorn and ignore the disagreement, or the fact that there are numerous translators who disagree with you, and a long history of that being translated properly by people without agendas, not who are fine with distorting meaning.

it seems you are very disingenuous in proving your truth or addressing clear disputes with rational consideration.

it is so sad you think that the Almighty, the Creator of All things, The Heavens and The Earth, is anything like you -- or that He is born of a woman, or could be subjugated by creation and killed.

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Last edited by greatsage on Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackOtaku wrote:

greatsage wrote:
hey so, how about you actually address what was said ?


https://www.gotquestions.org/I-AM-WHO-I-AM-Exodus-3-14.html
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackOtaku wrote:
HackOtaku wrote:

greatsage wrote:
hey so, how about you actually address what was said ?



you aren't addressing what is said, you are just spamming links. i have even provided links that thoroughly assess and refute the links you have provided, but you have clearly not read them whatsoever.

the argument on your link is that Jesus is repeating Exodus 3:14.
Exodus 3:14 is written in greek, and the masoretic translation does not affect this. the jews at the time of Jesus were using the greek septuagint, and in the new testament Jesus refers to and quotes the greek septuagint hundreds of times.

and we can clearly look at what was said in Exodus 3:14 -- it is "ego eimi ho on".
if Jesus was quoting Exodus 3:14, he would have said "ego eimi ho on". he did not. he said "ego eimi" full stop.

these two sentences are obviously not equivalent. if you would like to make a clear objection , then do so.
otherwise, your main claim has been defeated.

it is doubly defeated when you actually read your claim in context-- and with proper translation that refers to the context, such as the entire conversation of seeing Abraham, peace be upon him.

it is also hilarious that you skirt around the fact that the new testament statements attributed to Jesus can not be authenticated, but we have verifiable proof of our records of the statements of Muhammad ﷺ. you opened your mouth about the subject and professed how little you actually know about what is said in either of our religions

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