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Brolock
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greatsage wrote:
Brolock wrote:
there's nothing wrong with attacking someones character if that is the point of the argument

i respectfully disagree;
there are a lot of ways to approach reproaching someone before you ever need to 'attack' their character.

and the approach towards the individual doesn't necessitate harshness.
you will not encourage them to improve themselves if you set a bad example. if you open their eyes with a positive action you may turn their enmity to kinship. kinship isn't usually the consequence of attacking their character, and ultimately peaceful fraternity is what you are looking to enjoin.



it should be done with good manners and kind words,
not with violence and harshness,
but with considerate attentiveness with when is suitable, aiming in the copacetic and compassionate direction.

attack is a strong word, I only used it bc thats what kyle used here: "You then proceed to attack my character and call me dumb"
I would agree with what you said then, good manners and kind words are needed for any argument, so to rephrase what I said to be more inline with what I meant: it is ok to make the point of the argument about someone's character, and thus it is ok to criticize and mention someones character because it is the point of the argument.

now if youre arguing for the sake of it like an internet argument that leads no where, and the subject is still the persons character and no one is really using nice words, then attacking their character cant be called out as ad hominem, making the other's argument invalid because of that, since thats the point of the argument in the first place.
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greatsage
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brolock wrote:
greatsage wrote:
Brolock wrote:
there's nothing wrong with attacking someones character if that is the point of the argument

i respectfully disagree;
there are a lot of ways to approach reproaching someone before you ever need to 'attack' their character.

and the approach towards the individual doesn't necessitate harshness.
you will not encourage them to improve themselves if you set a bad example. if you open their eyes with a positive action you may turn their enmity to kinship. kinship isn't usually the consequence of attacking their character, and ultimately peaceful fraternity is what you are looking to enjoin.



it should be done with good manners and kind words,
not with violence and harshness,
but with considerate attentiveness with when is suitable, aiming in the copacetic and compassionate direction.

attack is a strong word, I only used it bc thats what kyle used here: "You then proceed to attack my character and call me dumb"
I would agree with what you said then, good manners and kind words are needed for any argument, so to rephrase what I said to be more inline with what I meant: it is ok to make the point of the argument about someone's character, and thus it is ok to criticize and mention someones character because it is the point of the argument.

now if youre arguing for the sake of it like an internet argument that leads no where, and the subject is still the persons character and no one is really using nice words, then attacking their character cant be called out as ad hominem, making the other's argument invalid because of that, since thats the point of the argument in the first place.

brolock is one grace of the forums

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konr
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greatsage wrote:
konr wrote:
For the record, this is the best response from you so far Kyle. Not because it was a particularly good one but rather that you finally went "this is a waste of my time I'm going to spend time actually enjoying my life" which is what you should be doing anyway.

@Talix: I read the Quran a couple of years ago (obviously an English translation) and I regret it because I feel like it was an enormous waste of time. I wanted to be sure that I was being honest with my opinion on stuff in there by actually reading the version recommended by Muslims on the internet. I've forgotten a lot of the details obviously because you can't really read a relatively dense book and just have it all in your head from that point, but it didn't change my mind. If anything it just solidified my position but gave me a better position to argue it.

That said, I don't really want to argue it anymore. I'm done with this pointless nonsense. I do think there are plenty of dangerous things in the scripture (more in hadiths tbh) and if they manifest in my country I'll react as and when I feel it's a good idea but fuck arguing with idiots on the internet that use the word "Islamophobia". Please don't respond to this with a bunch of scripture as it'll go in one ear and out the other. I just wanted to let you know I'd read it and haven't just been cherrypicking. I'm certainly no scholar, but I'd say it's a step above what many people would bother to do in the pursuit of truth.


you read a translation which has been known to have errors. not qur'an which is perfect, so you did not understand the meaning.

if you wish to cite an example, please do, but as someone who has studied the Qur'an instead of simply skimming it, I can disagree with you in full confidence. especially as someone who recites and reads it daily, and has attended actual studies on it, spending years doing so, and could never come to the conclusion you did. what was great was that i'm not alone in it

because i tried to understand why and what the believers understand about verses that confused me. and the majority of scholars and believers disagreed with your interpretation. and they gave evidence to support such a thing.

"you can't really read a relatively dense book and just have it all in your head from that point, but it didn't change my mind."
there are millions that do though. there are millions where it finally all clicks for them and changes their mind, answering their objectives just from reading it with an open and objective mind,
the truth was so profound it was impressed upon their hearts.


"If anything it just solidified my position but gave me a better position to argue it."
well then can you?

"plenty of dangerous things in the scripture"
produce your proof if you are truthful.

"more in hadiths tbh"
are you suddenly an expert on hadith sciences now? without googling, how many categories can they be classified in?

"I just wanted to let you know I'd read it"
i know you think you read it, but you simply didn't; you read a translation with your own bias. whose tafsir did you use?

"I'm certainly no scholar, but I'd say it's a step above what many people would bother to do in the pursuit of truth."
agreed. but sometimes in the pursuit of truth, we double check our findings, and we also take objective perspectives and consult scholars of the field.

independent.co.uk/voices/you-dont-need-to-look-much-further-than-the-quran-for-proof-that-islam-is-a-peaceful-religion-a6847031.html
islamicity.org/3769/does-the-quran-or-muhammad-promote-violence/

measure twice, cut once.

i will agree, however, a superficial study of a book that is not the qur'an but a translation that loses its eloquence and rhythm, and removes multiple different meanings that arabic conveys but english can not, and indeed distorts the meaning,
done by someone biased by media lies, would formulate your conclusion..
especially if they are not reading with tafsir -- that is, scholarly exegesis.
Are you suggesting that you can't correctly translate from Arabic to English? You'd think that would have been done by now after this much time. I'm not surprised you disagree with me in full confidence, as you are a staunch believer in Islam. I'm not going to debate with you on something you so clearly believe while I do not.

I am not suggesting you should take everything I'm saying as an argument in and of itself because I really do not want to argue as stated previously. You can make your own mind up whether or not I'm truthful, that's fine with me. I'm not Muslim and I'm never going to be Muslim. I disagree with plenty of the teachings of Islam and there's no possible way I could convey those disagreements to you without you suggesting I (and many other Muslims that practice in line with how I see it) have just gotten it wrong.

What I will say, is that everything you and anyone else does is with bias. That includes any scholar that you speak with and any author of exegesis (if I've understood correctly what this means, I've truly never seen this word) that you use to understand your religion. I can't get rid of bias and neither can you or any of these people. Take that how you wish.

I didn't say I was an expert in anything, please don't suggest I did. I just know that the Hadiths have a lot more shitty things in them than the Quran and many popular Imams online cite them to justify some extremely worrying views on all sorts of things. Again, I'm not going to give you examples as I don't want to argue any specifics with you but I hope you get what I'm saying. You very well may think those Imams are wrong about the scripture and if that's the case then that's great, you are hopefully one of the people that believes in the moderate and truly loving parts and doesn't interpret Islam in the way many of these people do. Great. That's not for me to argue with.

The version I read was recommended to me on Reddit by a bunch of Muslims by the way so I'd assume it wasn't biased against the religion. They did say it wouldn't be close to a perfect way to read it and suggested similar things to you if I wanted to fully understand, but they also understood that I am not truly reading something if I'm having to get someone else to explain something in a language I can't even read myself to clarify anything and so English was probably the best option first off.

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greatsage
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
greatsage wrote:
konr wrote:
For the record, this is the best response from you so far Kyle. Not because it was a particularly good one but rather that you finally went "this is a waste of my time I'm going to spend time actually enjoying my life" which is what you should be doing anyway.

@Talix: I read the Quran a couple of years ago (obviously an English translation) and I regret it because I feel like it was an enormous waste of time. I wanted to be sure that I was being honest with my opinion on stuff in there by actually reading the version recommended by Muslims on the internet. I've forgotten a lot of the details obviously because you can't really read a relatively dense book and just have it all in your head from that point, but it didn't change my mind. If anything it just solidified my position but gave me a better position to argue it.

That said, I don't really want to argue it anymore. I'm done with this pointless nonsense. I do think there are plenty of dangerous things in the scripture (more in hadiths tbh) and if they manifest in my country I'll react as and when I feel it's a good idea but fuck arguing with idiots on the internet that use the word "Islamophobia". Please don't respond to this with a bunch of scripture as it'll go in one ear and out the other. I just wanted to let you know I'd read it and haven't just been cherrypicking. I'm certainly no scholar, but I'd say it's a step above what many people would bother to do in the pursuit of truth.


you read a translation which has been known to have errors. not qur'an which is perfect, so you did not understand the meaning.

if you wish to cite an example, please do, but as someone who has studied the Qur'an instead of simply skimming it, I can disagree with you in full confidence. especially as someone who recites and reads it daily, and has attended actual studies on it, spending years doing so, and could never come to the conclusion you did. what was great was that i'm not alone in it

because i tried to understand why and what the believers understand about verses that confused me. and the majority of scholars and believers disagreed with your interpretation. and they gave evidence to support such a thing.

"you can't really read a relatively dense book and just have it all in your head from that point, but it didn't change my mind."
there are millions that do though. there are millions where it finally all clicks for them and changes their mind, answering their objectives just from reading it with an open and objective mind,
the truth was so profound it was impressed upon their hearts.


"If anything it just solidified my position but gave me a better position to argue it."
well then can you?

"plenty of dangerous things in the scripture"
produce your proof if you are truthful.

"more in hadiths tbh"
are you suddenly an expert on hadith sciences now? without googling, how many categories can they be classified in?

"I just wanted to let you know I'd read it"
i know you think you read it, but you simply didn't; you read a translation with your own bias. whose tafsir did you use?

"I'm certainly no scholar, but I'd say it's a step above what many people would bother to do in the pursuit of truth."
agreed. but sometimes in the pursuit of truth, we double check our findings, and we also take objective perspectives and consult scholars of the field.

independent.co.uk/voices/you-dont-need-to-look-much-further-than-the-quran-for-proof-that-islam-is-a-peaceful-religion-a6847031.html
islamicity.org/3769/does-the-quran-or-muhammad-promote-violence/

measure twice, cut once.

i will agree, however, a superficial study of a book that is not the qur'an but a translation that loses its eloquence and rhythm, and removes multiple different meanings that arabic conveys but english can not, and indeed distorts the meaning,
done by someone biased by media lies, would formulate your conclusion..
especially if they are not reading with tafsir -- that is, scholarly exegesis.
Are you suggesting that you can't correctly translate from Arabic to English? You'd think that would have been done by now after this much time. I'm not surprised you disagree with me in full confidence, as you are a staunch believer in Islam. I'm not going to debate with you on something you so clearly believe while I do not.

I am not suggesting you should take everything I'm saying as an argument in and of itself because I really do not want to argue as stated previously. You can make your own mind up whether or not I'm truthful, that's fine with me. I'm not Muslim and I'm never going to be Muslim. I disagree with plenty of the teachings of Islam and there's no possible way I could convey those disagreements to you without you suggesting I (and many other Muslims that practice in line with how I see it) have just gotten it wrong.

What I will say, is that everything you and anyone else does is with bias. That includes any scholar that you speak with and any author of exegesis (if I've understood correctly what this means, I've truly never seen this word) that you use to understand your religion. I can't get rid of bias and neither can you or any of these people. Take that how you wish.

I didn't say I was an expert in anything, please don't suggest I did. I just know that the Hadiths have a lot more shitty things in them than the Quran and many popular Imams online cite them to justify some extremely worrying views on all sorts of things. Again, I'm not going to give you examples as I don't want to argue any specifics with you but I hope you get what I'm saying. You very well may think those Imams are wrong about the scripture and if that's the case then that's great, you are hopefully one of the people that believes in the moderate and truly loving parts and doesn't interpret Islam in the way many of these people do. Great. That's not for me to argue with.

The version I read was recommended to me on Reddit by a bunch of Muslims by the way so I'd assume it wasn't biased against the religion. They did say it wouldn't be close to a perfect way to read it and suggested similar things to you if I wanted to fully understand, but they also understood that I am not truly reading something if I'm having to get someone else to explain something in a language I can't even read myself to clarify anything and so English was probably the best option first off.

>Are you suggesting that you can't correctly translate from Arabic to English?
yes, this is not something that can be properly done by anyone.
Arabic is a much more complicated and precise language that can convey a lot more information and meaning in concise words than English can.

> I'm not surprised you disagree with me in full confidence, as you are a staunch believer in Islam.
yeah, and i'm not surprised as you're biased and islamophobic. it is simply a fact that someone who continually studies a book for years knows it more intimately than someone who read a faulty translation once years ago.

>I disagree with plenty of the teachings of Islam and there's no possible way I could convey those disagreements to you without you suggesting I (and many other Muslims that practice in line with how I see it) have just gotten it wrong.
and you are to arrogant to admit the possibility that you have done so. guess what? if you did that exactly that, what are we supposed to do? commend you for your wrong interpretation that has been refuted by scholars?

you said you only found further support for your argument. but all you've offered is excuses and a cop out.

>what I will say, is that everything you and anyone else does is with bias.
being willfully educated is not biased. you are like a flat earther telling a physicist they are biased.

>is with bias. That includes any scholar that you speak with and any author of exegesis (if I've understood correctly what this means, I've truly never seen this word)
exegesis means scholarly explanation. education does not equate with bias just because you have closed your mind to it and disagree with it right off the bat without even understand it. when multiple people insist you have interpreted their faith wrong, you faithsplain to them what their faith actually is, when you are markedly ignorant on the subject.

that's why you couldn't produce a single shred of evidence to support your claim. you just gave a big fluff of nothing and excuses.

>again, I'm not going to give you examples as I don't want to argue any specifics with you but I hope you get what I'm saying.

yes, that you HAVE NONE, or you would have produced them. I get what you are saying -- you are lying, and I know as I am intimately acquainted with the Qur'an and you are not. for example, you can't read qur'an without tafsir/exegesis. so no, sorry, you dont have an understanding of islam and qur'an and when challenged to back up your slander, you cop out.

"If anything it just solidified my position but gave me a better position to argue it."
if this were so true you'd have anything to offer. but it's not. i see right through your mask. you are ignorant and you stepped up to the plate unprepared. don't try to talk to me about the Qur'an -- I know it better than you do.

the amount of stupidity i found in your statements i won't even begin to address. you're not worth it. you just regurgitate bullshit

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konr
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh Talix. I don't wanna fucking argue with you, why are you acting like I'm being hostile? Calling me a liar and shit. Forget I said anything, you're so fixated on your religion that you can't take something for what it actually is.

EDIT: You're responding to things and suggesting I mean things that I don't mean or have said things I haven't said. I haven't at any point suggested that I "understand Islam better than you" or an Islamic scholar. Come on man, why are you arguing against what I'm saying as if I actually said anything about specific things in the scripture? I didn't say shit. I said I personally disagree with a number of things that Muslims generally believe and that I've read in the scripture. I'm not telling you that you'll even see it the same way as those Muslims I've had conversations with and listened to and obviously, I'm not saying my interpretation is flawless or even amazing.

I don't understand what your goal is here, are you trying to be a dick? I'm not sure.

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greatsage
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
Sigh Talix. I don't wanna fucking argue with you, why are you acting like I'm being hostile? Calling me a liar and shit. Forget I said anything, you're so fixated on your religion that you can't take something for what it actually is.


if you are truthful then you can produce your proof. you can't just go around slandering without evidence and expect to be taken as telling the truth.
you're the one who is blind to your fixation. i'm not asking for you to argue. you are making a claim. if it isn't a lie, you should be competent enough to cite at least one objection, but you don't, because you can't, because you aren't competent enough to do so.

you simply are a liar. you speak untrue things and repeat that which is told to you without verifying it. if you take offense to being called a liar, then don't lie, and when you make a claim, and are asked to produce proof, do so, if you are truthful.

it should be easy if you are. if not, you'll have to run around with a bunch of excuses as to why you're copping out.

edit:

you say
"I said I personally disagree with a number of things that Muslims generally believe and that I've read in the scripture."

after you say

'I haven't at any point suggested that I "understand Islam better than you"'

if you are pesonally disagreeing with the majority of scholars, and myself, then you are saying you understand islam better than us. and you dont. sorry.
you have no authority to speak on the qur'an and every word you pronounce about it has no support behind it. you disagree with principles that we muslims do not claim. and worse, you do not even cite these principles.\

because you are woefully incompetent to accomplish such a thing.

you didn't form a conclusion from study. you went in looking for support for your already made up mind.

"Come on man, why are you arguing against what I'm saying as if I actually said anything about specific things in the scripture? I didn't say shit. "
you said
"plenty of dangerous things in the scripture"
so yeah, you did say shit. the scholars disagree with you on this. they do so not out of blind opinion but by referencing the actual scripture -- something you don't do. I also agree with the scholars and have came to the same conclusion.
I know Islam doesn't promote what you are saying, and I am a higher authority on the subject than you. you are lying.

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Last edited by greatsage on Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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konr
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greatsage wrote:
konr wrote:
Sigh Talix. I don't wanna fucking argue with you, why are you acting like I'm being hostile? Calling me a liar and shit. Forget I said anything, you're so fixated on your religion that you can't take something for what it actually is.


if you are truthful then you can produce your proof. you can't just go around slandering without evidence and expect to be taken as telling the truth.
you're the one who is blind to your fixation. i'm not asking for you to argue. you are making a claim. if it isn't a lie, you should be competent enough to cite at least one objection, but you don't, because you can't, because you aren't competent enough to do so.

you simply are a liar. you speak untrue things and repeat that which is told to you without verifying it. if you take offense to being called a liar, then don't lie, and when you make a claim, and are asked to produce proof, do so, if you are truthful.

it should be easy if you are. if not, you'll have to run around with a bunch of excuses as to why you're copping out.

edit:

you say
"I said I personally disagree with a number of things that Muslims generally believe and that I've read in the scripture."

after you say

'I haven't at any point suggested that I "understand Islam better than you"'

if you are pesonally disagreeing with the majority of scholars, and myself, then you are saying you understand islam better than us. and you dont. sorry.
you have no authority to speak on the qur'an and every word you pronounce about it has no support behind it. you disagree with principles that we muslims do not claim. and worse, you do not even cite these principles.\

because you are woefully incompetent to accomplish such a thing.

you didn't form a conclusion from study. you went in looking for support for you already made up mind.

"Come on man, why are you arguing against what I'm saying as if I actually said anything about specific things in the scripture? I didn't say shit. "
you said
"plenty of dangerous things in the scripture"
so yeah, you did say shit. the scholars disagree with you on this. they do so not out of blind opinion but by referencing the actual scripture -- something you don't do. I also agree with the scholars and have came to the same conclusion.
I know Islam doesn't promote what you are saying, and I am a higher authority on the subject than you. you are lying.
I didn't slander a thing. I didn't say the "correct" interpretation of Islam says anything in particular. As far as I went was that I've listened to Imams talking about Islam and saying some things that I find personally worrying, and reading the (admittedly not perfect) version of the scripture that I did didn't help make it less worrying to me. I've said repeatedly that I do not want to argue about it and that's why I'm not bringing anything up in particular because I know all that you will do in response to that is argue against it, which I stress once again I'm done doing.

I have other shit I should be focusing on and these arguments and the nature behind them are soul sapping. Nothing good ever comes out of them and all it is is a shit slinging match where everyone just assumes the other person means the worst possible thing they could mean. Attacking back and forth. I'm done with that.

What lie have I told? You're calling me a liar and suggesting I'm incompetant for what? Telling you that I hold an opinion without specifying anything? Am I lying if I say I feel a certain way? Am I lying if I say I've heard Imams say some worrying (IN MY PERSONAL OPINION) stuff? Do you think all Imams are perfect and no one is capable of saying shitty things within your religion? I don't understand why you immediately jump to accusations.

There's nowhere to cop out. This is not an argument. I am not saying that you are wrong or that I am right. I was simply saying that I have an opinion still but I've withdrawn from thinking about the topic because there are far more important things (IN MY PERSONAL OPINION) to worry about and I'd rather not depress myself with dumb arguments, as mentioned above.

Please, actually read this and understand my intent. Don't be so accusatory.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you did. i cited as such


"plenty of dangerous things in the scripture"


produce your evidence if you are truthful, else you are lying. why is this so hard? you claimed that you have nothing but a support for this stance. I want to see why you are correct over the tens of thousands of scholars who have clearly demonstrated denouncement of what you are saying Islamic scripture supports.

the reason you won't give a citation is because you know you'll be BTFO and proven a liar. that's why you skirt around. step up to the plate prepared.

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konr
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can you tell me that I disagree with "the majority of scholars" and yourself and that what I disagree with is something that Muslims don't claim if you don't even know what it is that I'm talking about? I haven't told you what it is and have explicitly said it's just a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. As for the plenty of dangerous things that I've read in the scripture (and more importantly heard repeated from a number of Imams on YT etc. afterward), while I don't want to discuss what they are as explained before that is also a matter of OPINION. A conservative could tell a Liberal that their politics are "dangerous" and vice versa, that doesn't make them a liar.

I told you that I have that opinion so that you'd understand it was futile to try to convince me otherwise. If I'd have known (I really should have..) you'd hone in on that so heavily I'd never have bothered. There's really no need for you to be so hostile, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying pretty heavily if you think I'm making a claim past saying my opinion without specifying anything in particular.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
How can you tell me that I disagree with "the majority of scholars" and yourself and that what I disagree with is something that Muslims don't claim if you don't even know what it is that I'm talking about? I haven't told you what it is and have explicitly said it's just a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. As for the plenty of dangerous things that I've read in the scripture (and more importantly heard repeated from a number of Imams on YT etc. afterward), while I don't want to discuss what they are as explained before that is also a matter of OPINION.



"matter of opinion" clearly haven't read Qur'an, its interpretation isn't something that's a matter of opinion.

"How can you tell me that I disagree with "the majority of scholars" and yourself and that what I disagree with is something that Muslims don't claim if you don't even know what it is that I'm talking about?"

I quoted how. You said the scripture is dangerous. But after numerous requests you don't produce any proof. You just repeat it as a tautological axiom.

You have proven yourself a liar and refused to prove yourself true. Good going. Can't even do basic reading.

If you don't care so much then just shut up and go away. You're wrong, and scholars disagree with you.

Ibn Al-Qayyim, may Allah have mercy on him, said, 天erily, the Sharia is founded upon wisdom and welfare for the servants in this life and the afterlife. In its entirety it is justice, mercy, benefit, and wisdom. Every matter which abandons justice for tyranny, mercy for cruelty, benefit for corruption, and wisdom for foolishness is not a part of the Sharia even if it was introduced therein by an interpretation.


This religion is not for the arrogant. You've made your case: you are islamopgoboc and have no further case. Now since you cade so little, prove it and shut up.



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konr
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greatsage wrote:
konr wrote:
How can you tell me that I disagree with "the majority of scholars" and yourself and that what I disagree with is something that Muslims don't claim if you don't even know what it is that I'm talking about? I haven't told you what it is and have explicitly said it's just a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. As for the plenty of dangerous things that I've read in the scripture (and more importantly heard repeated from a number of Imams on YT etc. afterward), while I don't want to discuss what they are as explained before that is also a matter of OPINION.



"matter of opinion" clearly haven't read Qur'an, its interpretation isn't something that's a matter of opinion.

"How can you tell me that I disagree with "the majority of scholars" and yourself and that what I disagree with is something that Muslims don't claim if you don't even know what it is that I'm talking about?"

I quoted how. You said the scripture is dangerous. But after numerous requests you don't produce any proof. You just repeat it as a tautological axiom.

You have proven yourself a liar and refused to prove yourself true. Good going. Can't even do basic reading.

If you don't care so much then just shut up and go away. You're wrong, and scholars disagree with you.

Ibn Al-Qayyim, may Allah have mercy on him, said, 天erily, the Sharia is founded upon wisdom and welfare for the servants in this life and the afterlife. In its entirety it is justice, mercy, benefit, and wisdom. Every matter which abandons justice for tyranny, mercy for cruelty, benefit for corruption, and wisdom for foolishness is not a part of the Sharia even if it was introduced therein by an interpretation.


This religion is not for the arrogant. You've made your case: you are islamopgoboc and have no further case. Now since you cade so little, prove it and shut up.
I didn't say I didn't care about this particular conversation, but thank you for continuing to be a dick about something I never actually said. I realise your religion is the only thing you care about now but remember you were suggesting that being polite etc. was a good idea just a few posts ago. Don't go proving Kyle right when it comes to the "practive what you preach" line.

I don't think that liar means what you think it means, and I don't think you understand that people that aren't Muslim don't believe what you do. When you say that the Quran's interpretation isn't something that's a matter of opinion, you say that from the position of Allah being the one true God and that it is the exact word of God said(?) verbatim to the Prophet and written down later perfectly, right? Well I don't believe that because I'm not Muslim, and I've seen plenty of people that claim to be Muslim saying completely different things. If it was not a matter of opinion then why do so many Muslims differ in opinion when it comes to the scripture and what it actually means?

But again, I am not trying to argue with you to say what is true and what is not. I didn't say explicitly that the things in the Quran are dangerous or that the way some Imams have spoken about it is correct, I said that I PERSONALLY see some of the things in there as dangerous. Try to think of it from my point of view without letting your vitriol take hold.

I have not "made my case", you're assuming what my case is and getting angry that I won't in fact make said case. I've said one very very vague thing that is entirely based in opinion and is not an objective statement at all. I'm not trying to tell you what you believe, just that I interpreted what I read a certain way and that a part of that was because it was confirmed by Imams in videos talking about the scripture. If I had read it and had not seen a single Muslim echoing the views I find to be worrying then I would probably have spent more time reading and studying to try to make sure I was being fair, but instead what I realised is that while my knowledge on the topic is not perfect it really didn't need to be as I'm happier when not talking about the topic overall. Yet here I am, dragged into it because I'm trying to talk some reason into a person that only a few pages ago seemed a lot more reasonable than he once was. What happened there? What changed to make you read what I'm saying and suggest I mean something that I'm not explicitly saying, or worse that I'm literally lying to you? Why would I do that?

EDIT:

This is an enormous waste of my time. You're never going to agree that anyone that is even slightly critical of Islam is anything but a liar. I'm out. Seeya.

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Channel GannoK
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you understand why I didn't make the effort to air his dirty laundry yet konr, he has the mental gymnastic skills of a professional, dare I say mental jiu jitsu.

If you don't point each individual flaw in every character of every word he says, he will just move the goal Post. Classic debate logical fallacies.

Theres no point in arguing with a wannabe goat fucker

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Shrooms wrote:
Also writing logically makes zero sense, I suggest you brush up on your english

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greatsage
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

since you clearly refuse to produce any witness or evidence, you are clearly lying.

I know my book better than you. I skimmed but i'm not gonna bother replying to someone so arrogant who literally admitted they don't understand the book but go on saying they have an understanding of it being dangerous lmao

way to waste your breath. you failed here. all you had to do was produce your proof but you have none. and that's established.

thanks for the laugh at the wall of text i won't read

Channel GannoK wrote:
Do you understand why I didn't make the effort to air his dirty laundry yet konr, he has the mental gymnastic skills of a professional, dare I say mental jiu jitsu.

If you don't point each individual flaw in every character of every word he says, he will just move the goal Post. Classic debate logical fallacies.

Theres no point in arguing with a wannabe goat fucker


clear unsubstantiated lies and character assassination. you are full of it. and you refuse to cite a single thing. someone who tells the truth wouldn't be so reluctant.

obvious islamophobia. lanat'Allahu alayka

go familiarise yourselves with the burden of proof. sorry you couldn't just simply shut up mr. caere so little to post so big a wall of text lmao

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Imam al-Shafi段 ( رحمه الله ) wrote:
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TheIndianGuy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

super hot megablazing talix & gannok collab. well organized troll.
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Channel GannoK
pffrt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

greatsage wrote:
since you clearly refuse to produce any witness or evidence, you are clearly lying.

I know my book better than you. I skimmed but i'm not gonna bother replying to someone so arrogant who literally admitted they don't understand the book but go on saying they have an understanding of it being dangerous lmao

way to waste your breath. you failed here. all you had to do was produce your proof but you have none. and that's established.

thanks for the laugh at the wall of text i won't read

Channel GannoK wrote:
Do you understand why I didn't make the effort to air his dirty laundry yet konr, he has the mental gymnastic skills of a professional, dare I say mental jiu jitsu.

If you don't point each individual flaw in every character of every word he says, he will just move the goal Post. Classic debate logical fallacies.

Theres no point in arguing with a wannabe goat fucker


clear unsubstantiated lies and character assassination. you are full of it. and you refuse to cite a single thing. someone who tells the truth wouldn't be so reluctant.

obvious islamophobia. lanat'Allahu alayka

go familiarise yourselves with the burden of proof. sorry you couldn't just simply shut up mr. caere so little to post so big a wall of text lmao

When you are calling me and konr liars, you only look like an idiot projecting. You couldnt possibly hope that people will forget what Islam(any mainstream religion when it comes down to it) has done to people in society.

you told me you and your wife are practicing a shariah law based marriage. Jesus fucking Christ just go live in Saudi Arabia you fucking piece of shit, or are you afraid of what they might say and do?

Quit your fucking crying you petulant child. The world isnt a fair place, never has been never will be. Expect people to form opinions about you based on your actions. I've said it a million times, I do not have to explain to you why you're a piece of shit. You and I both already know why, and quite possibly a handful more without elaborating. Arent you supposed to be a pillar of your family and community, be a fucking man breh, walk above this level of insults and quarrelling and fact statements. I thought a lion doesnt fret over the opinion of sheep? or are you still just a contradictory hypocrite troglodyte, I mean thats the only reason you could consider Islam being a socially acceptable truth, rather than a convinient one for your own character.

Nevermind I can answer that question myself.

Ill be hopping on a plane back to freedom land here in a few hours.

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Also writing logically makes zero sense, I suggest you brush up on your english

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