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ipivb
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 Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| elpacco wrote: | Don't take this the wrong way, but I think of free will as merely an illusion. It's a kind of concept that doesn't really exist. All experiences will have some effect, almost always minor, on the decisions you will make in the future. For example, reading this right now will have an effect upon where you go out for lunch today, or whether you even will at all. One could say that you have the choice, but ultimately your decision is going to be predetermined.
The past causes you to become the person you are and causes you to make the choices you make. |
I couldn't agree more. Free will is defined as:
"The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."
Fate is defined as:
"The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events"
The laws of physics are an example of fate. My tennis ball example is perfect... if conditions are exactly the same, the outcome will always be exactly the same. This creates predictability. And since our behavior is governed by the laws of physics... our behavior is also "predictable" in the strictest sense. Which means that our choices are constrained by fate... meaning we have no free will.
| elpacco wrote: | | Jorg hi wrote: | So what is the motivation for me posting this below?:
BOUDSGKHDSFHKLSDHFIWE(*THP{($TH@*&P^RCJT@P#RJ#@Y(R@#*YTK(*@#P^YK@#*(<C@#>
???
Edit:From viewing what you guys define 'selfish'
The idea of doing something for a specific motivation.
THEN everything is SELFISH! |
Think of it this way: had you never read this post and got into a discussion with us and read what we've been writing, you would have never posted that. |
Excellent example. On a cellular level, there is a biological process to explain why he clicked on the thread, read it, concluded his thoughts, and decided to post them. And it couldn't have been any other way.
| Jorg hi wrote: | Yes. But Time is relative O_O. Stuff doesn't happen from pre-existing things.
It has already happened. Everything has happened xD Instantly. |
Take time out of the picture, because in a sense, it doesn't need to exist. There only needs to be a past, present, and future. The past determines the present, the present determines the future. It's the simple law of cause and effect.
Quantum fluctuations produced the big bang. The big bang lead to galaxies. Galaxies lead to life. So in a sense, the big bang is the ultimate cause of everything that happened, and if there was another big bang with the exact same conditions (if you don't count the randomness of radioactive decay), everything would happen exactly the same as it did now.
If you throw a tennis ball at a wall at the same angle, velocity, wind resistance, gravity, etc... it will always bounce in the same direction. It doesn't have a choice. Our brains are no exception to this principle. If our neurons fire in a certain order, they will always fire in that same order, given the same conditions (in other words, you will always make the same decision). |
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Jorg hi
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Why can't radioactive decay be predicted? We cannot assume that its RANDOM! So far we've changed Altruism through these levels
Common Sense -> Cellular Level -> Physics Level -> XXXXXXXXX
There must be something after that, that humans cannot comprehend.
If the theory of relativity proves right, then RadioActivity can be predicted!
Why Mustn't it not? |
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elpacco
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Jorg hi wrote: | Why can't radioactive decay be predicted? We cannot assume that its RANDOM! So far we've changed Altruism through these levels
Common Sense -> Cellular Level -> Physics Level -> XXXXXXXXX
There must be something after that, that humans cannot comprehend.
If the theory of relativity proves right, then RadioActivity can be predicted!
Why Mustn't it not? |
Not really 100% sure what you're getting at, but note that the behavior of radioactive particles on the quantum level is only seemingly random. It might be determinant, but at this point we simply don't understand enough about them to classify their behavior as anything but random. If there are causes and factors, we just don't know them yet. To be honest, I personally don't know enough about quantum physics to give you a solid answer.
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| [AM]Misery wrote: |
| FangBanger wrote: | | What is the best way for a lv19 Soldier to solo Sledge on Borderlands? |
Shoot him. |
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Jorg hi
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Yes but this all goes back to the idea of Altruism. A Genetic problem or pre designed destiny "Like Physics" could make someone with full Altruism! Its not like being an Altruistic is impossible... Maybe it seems to have low chance (In perspection of the 3rd dimension). IT is still POSSIBLE. As who knows? Maybe that trait was still inside Jesus' DNA and it never got removed/cross bred away. JESUS' died on the cross just to HELP US! That may be proof of the so called 'genetic idea' that you guys keep saying. BUT if I knew God was real, and saw him with my own naked eyes and talked with him.. I would do the same thing. Would you?
All this idea about Physics was only supporting that things cannnot be changed(At least in the 4th dimension aspect).
It never said that the things that were created could have variety? Did it not? |
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Geri
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Maybe that trait was still inside Jesus' DNA and it never got removed/cross bred away. JESUS' died on the cross just to HELP US! That may be proof of the so called 'genetic idea' that you guys keep saying. BUT if I knew God was real, and saw him with my own naked eyes and talked with him.. I would do the same thing. Would you? |
Someone with seemingly infinite power (like Jesus or God) can be selfless as they do not have to sacrafice anything to help others. How much would it cost for God to help for anyone? Basically nothing. And if You think about Jesus and the cross, thousands of others have died a meaningless death on the cross just like Him so it was nothing special. It was very common to just execute people for this or that. But at least Jesus know that He has a fine place to return to. Poor "peasants" were sacraficed for nothing all over history, not to mention kids that were slaughtered in wars and they are not remembered one by one with names in the Bible.
And while God is a forgiving guy, I wonder why did they have to live and die that way. Adam and Eva... That was quite some time ago. Even I would forgive humanity in a few thousands of years.
So Jesus did not have to die to save us. And if God was enjoying that Jesus is suffering (which is obvious or else He would have helped Him), then it is a family issue and not related to our pity mortal lives.
So Christanity just show me that God could be pretty selfless as it would cost nothing to Him, but He still enjoys being selfish. Worst example that could come up in this topic.
We should talk about mortals and not about gods or demi-gods.
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Jorg hi
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus did not die for us? How many of those people that died upon crosses CHOSE to die that way and didn't care for their lifes as they knew they would be helping people? 
How would he be selfish? Maybe he had a specific cause for this.
GOD has a place in HEAVEN for everyone so why would he even bother saving him when he knows there is a MUCH better place for JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!
But okay lol as I see my reverting towards religion is destroying your argumentative gains xD |
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Geri
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Jorg hi wrote: | Jesus did not die for us? How many of those people that died upon crosses CHOSE to die that way and didn't care for their lifes as they knew they would be helping people?
How would he be selfish? Maybe he had a specific cause for this.
GOD has a place in HEAVEN for everyone so why would he even bother saving him when he knows there is a MUCH better place for JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!
But okay lol as I see my reverting towards religion is destroying your argumentative gains xD |
I just don't get it why would He need to die on a cross at all. Even God isn't selfless. He want sacrafices. I for one wouldn't want anyone to die for me. Only He is demanding these things and for what exactly? I don't have a clue. He could afford to be kind but He isn't. For me that's an ultimate proof that selflessness is not existing even in religions. Both God and Jesus could change humanity but none of them has done it. They just don't care. At least it seems to me so.
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Receding
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Jorg hi wrote: | Yes but this all goes back to the idea of Altruism. A Genetic problem or pre designed destiny "Like Physics" could make someone with full Altruism! Its not like being an Altruistic is impossible... Maybe it seems to have low chance (In perspection of the 3rd dimension). IT is still POSSIBLE. As who knows? Maybe that trait was still inside Jesus' DNA and it never got removed/cross bred away. JESUS' died on the cross just to HELP US! That may be proof of the so called 'genetic idea' that you guys keep saying. BUT if I knew God was real, and saw him with my own naked eyes and talked with him.. I would do the same thing. Would you?
All this idea about Physics was only supporting that things cannnot be changed(At least in the 4th dimension aspect).
It never said that the things that were created could have variety? Did it not? |
Are you really falling back on an unproven illogical idea of a deity to 'prove' or 'defend' your argument?
Hahah, oh wow. |
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ipivb
Master Cheater
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Jorg hi wrote: | Jesus did not die for us? How many of those people that died upon crosses CHOSE to die that way and didn't care for their lifes as they knew they would be helping people?
How would he be selfish? Maybe he had a specific cause for this.
GOD has a place in HEAVEN for everyone so why would he even bother saving him when he knows there is a MUCH better place for JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!
But okay lol as I see my reverting towards religion is destroying your argumentative gains xD |
You have to realize we're not saying he's selfish. We're saying he wasn't selfless.
Selflessness only exists on the level of "being very unselfish", but not absolutely unselfish. To be completely selfless, you'd have to perform an act that you have absolutely no gain from, even a mental reward such as knowing you did the right thing, or compassion, etc.
You can't move your arm unless there is some kind of self-beneficial reason behind it. Even thoughts can't be thought without a slight reward behind them.
| Jorg hi wrote: | All this idea about Physics was only supporting that things cannnot be changed(At least in the 4th dimension aspect).
It never said that the things that were created could have variety? Did it not? |
I will give a proper reply when I am not slightly drunk but I did want to point out that the 4th dimension defines the topology of space (whether it is open, closed, or flat). Picture a 3 dimensional bar, and a 4th dimension that describes which way it curves. |
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hcavolsdsadgadsg
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| elpacco wrote: | | Don't take this the wrong way, but I think of free will as merely an illusion. It's a kind of concept that doesn't really exist. All experiences will have some effect, almost always minor, on the decisions you will make in the future. For example, reading this right now will have an effect upon where you go out for lunch today, or whether you even will at all. One could say that you have the choice, but ultimately your decision is going to be predetermined. |
If you find this interesting, you might like reading Dostoevsky, the character in Notes from Underground goes over the notion of free will (and from there it can be tied into utilitarianism).
Free will at it's core is the capability of one to make choice without restraint. This is the obvious definition, but what also comes partnered with free will is the idea that human behavior cannot truly be predicted. This later evolves into his theory that a world governed by rules, regulations, and calculated theories would ultimately lead to people growing tired of it as it encroaches on what can be envisioned as true free will.
If true free will is desired, then someone will act out against the rules, but also that true free will is not simply acting out for the best result of a given situation (hence utilitarianism). This also brings up the problematic side of free will, destruction. With free will comes the ability to act as one pleases, which, of course, can bring about harm. War is an obvious example. Even as society grows and evolves, people have proven themselves to be capable of spilling blood regardless.
But, with free will also comes the notion of individuality. Free will is what also makes someone who they are. To strive for true free will is to strive to be free from constraint. People will act out in a way just to prove they are free, they will act stupidly instead of sanely just to spite whatever it is that works against free will.
Utilitarianism exists as a way to gauge the apparent utility of your actions, but by being guided by such a notion, one does not truly have free will. The outcome that generates the most utility is the one that is most favorable, the greater good. Killing an otherwise innocent person to save the lives of multiple others might be a good example. |
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ipivb
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I pretty much agree with what I can understand your are saying. However you are talking about free will on a macroscopic level. On that level, it does exist, but only as an illusion.
On a cellular level, there is a reason why everything happens the way it does.
If you could completely simulate a brain with a computer (down to the subparticles), you should be able to predict what it will think. There's no mystical processes involved with decision making, which leaves only determinism or slight randomness... and neither of those options describe free will that doesn't have restrictions. |
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Jorg hi
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Then that means free will exists  Your idea of observation isn't deep enough xD |
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hcavolsdsadgadsg
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ipivb wrote: | I pretty much agree with what I can understand your are saying. However you are talking about free will on a macroscopic level. On that level, it does exist, but only as an illusion.
On a cellular level, there is a reason why everything happens the way it does.
If you could completely simulate a brain with a computer (down to the subparticles), you should be able to predict what it will think. There's no mystical processes involved with decision making, which leaves only determinism or slight randomness... and neither of those options describe free will that doesn't have restrictions. |
You (as a human) are capable of thinking about thinking. You are aware of your own consciousness, this is what sets you apart. |
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ipivb
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Jorg hi wrote: | | Then that means free will exists Your idea of observation isn't deep enough xD |
It exists as an illusion. Just like evolution doesn't appear to exist on a day-to-day basis, but over millions of years, it's obvious.
| slovach wrote: | | You (as a human) are capable of thinking about thinking. You are aware of your own consciousness, this is what sets you apart. |
Self-awareness is just a feature of an advanced brain.
The computer simulated brain I mentioned would also be self aware. It's been proven that birds and dolphins are also self-aware. You don't need to be a human to be self-aware, you just need an advanced enough brain.
If you could physically piece together an exact replica of a human brain and put it in a robot, it would be self-aware. There is no mystical human part involved... just biological/neurological processes. |
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Jorg hi
I post too much
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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@ipivb - That means the idea of absolute time is making it an allusion. How can something proved on the cellular level be correct if the laws of physics prove it WRONG!
???????????????????????????????????? Thats like saying Mitosis is always perfect, when the physics of it has inaccuracies!!!!!!! |
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