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despite controversy, donald trump is leading all the polls
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Rin
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:08 pm Post subject:

greatsage wrote:

the only sensible option is to not vote

Actually this is the most appealing response I've seen here regarding voting...

Public Choice Theory also proves this mathematically for the majority of Americans....
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HackOtaku
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 pm Post subject:

Rin wrote:

greatsage wrote:

the only sensible option is to not vote

Actually this is the most appealing response I've seen here regarding voting...

Public Choice Theory also proves this mathematically for the majority of Americans....

Respectfully disagree. Voting is one of the few ways to have your voice heard. The general apathy towards voting is part of the reason why we're in so much shit right now.

atom0s
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:22 pm Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

Rin wrote:

greatsage wrote:

the only sensible option is to not vote

Actually this is the most appealing response I've seen here regarding voting...

Public Choice Theory also proves this mathematically for the majority of Americans....

Respectfully disagree. Voting is one of the few ways to have your voice heard. The general apathy towards voting is part of the reason why we're in so much shit right now.

More people are also beginning to realize that while the electoral college is around, popular vote does not matter if presidents target key states during their campaigning. Not to mention the candidates in the last handful of elections have not on everyones favorite list of people.
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Rin
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Posts: 2172

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:33 pm Post subject:

atom0s wrote:

HackOtaku wrote:

Rin wrote:

greatsage wrote:

the only sensible option is to not vote

Actually this is the most appealing response I've seen here regarding voting...

Public Choice Theory also proves this mathematically for the majority of Americans....

Respectfully disagree. Voting is one of the few ways to have your voice heard. The general apathy towards voting is part of the reason why we're in so much shit right now.

HackOtaku, you can disagree based on a moral basis, but mathematically... if your vote does not carry sufficient weight in terms of satisfaction by voting versus the cost of you going to vote, you have a net loss....

Now... if everyone was to stop voting... I'd go ahead and go vote... because my one vote now counts a shit ton...

This is true for simple democratic theory

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for our Electoral College system... your vote really is meaningless in most states as the electoral college does not have to vote the same way as a state (unless you're in one of those states that have a rule where the electoral college voter has to go with whatever the state goes with)....
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HackOtaku
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:33 pm Post subject:

atom0s wrote:

HackOtaku wrote:

Rin wrote:

greatsage wrote:

the only sensible option is to not vote

Actually this is the most appealing response I've seen here regarding voting...

Public Choice Theory also proves this mathematically for the majority of Americans....

Respectfully disagree. Voting is one of the few ways to have your voice heard. The general apathy towards voting is part of the reason why we're in so much shit right now.

Yeah, I agree with you there. I don't know why we don't determine things by the popular vote. That being said, I still personally believe that not voting isn't an answer. If, for nothing else, to increase the number of people in your age range that actually voted in the last election. Politicians have no real incentive to try to cater to the needs of young people if young people aren't going to get them elected.

Last edited by HackOtaku on Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:38 pm; edited 2 times in total

Rin
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Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 2172

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:35 pm Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

atom0s wrote:

HackOtaku wrote:

Rin wrote:

greatsage wrote:

the only sensible option is to not vote

Actually this is the most appealing response I've seen here regarding voting...

Public Choice Theory also proves this mathematically for the majority of Americans....

Respectfully disagree. Voting is one of the few ways to have your voice heard. The general apathy towards voting is part of the reason why we're in so much shit right now.

True, but why do it when someone else will... wouldnt you rather sit on your ass and reap in the benefits

FREERIDE!

hehe I'm an asshole

(Obvious flaw in this logic is everyone will think this way and no one will go vote)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Costs of voting:

Time reading up on a candidate and actually going to vote (includes time standing in a line if you live in an area like mine (literally takes 1 hour to vote for most of the day))

Car (if you drive): Gas + Mileage you tack on (affects resale value)

Emotional distress (if your candidate loses)

There are other costs but these are general things that a court will be willing to look at in a case of restitution
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Last edited by Rin on Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:44 pm; edited 2 times in total

HackOtaku
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:39 pm Post subject:

Rin wrote:

HackOtaku wrote:

atom0s wrote:

HackOtaku wrote:

Rin wrote:

greatsage wrote:

the only sensible option is to not vote

Actually this is the most appealing response I've seen here regarding voting...

Public Choice Theory also proves this mathematically for the majority of Americans....

Respectfully disagree. Voting is one of the few ways to have your voice heard. The general apathy towards voting is part of the reason why we're in so much shit right now.

Haha, I get what you're saying, and I will say I have felt very similarly for a long time. But the truth is, the majority of Americans don't vote anyway, and like you said, it is largely a moral standpoint that I disagree with you from. It's a flawed system, but if I'm not doing anything to try and fix it via attempting to get the right people in the right places, I sort of lose any right to complain about it, and I have so many complaints.

Rin
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Posts: 2172

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:45 pm Post subject:

awks I added the cost of voting above in the last reply i sent but anyways if your satisfaction from voting is higher than the costs, you should vote... cause... it only makes sense that you do... I get no satisfaction and my costs are hella high (and because i take into account that probability of my vote even meaning anything into account) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Probability of decisiveness is the probability of my vote being the swinging and tie breaking vote... almost 0.... for any election but lets assume i value my hour of work at 20 USD and voting takes me an hour (cause it does) the probability of decisiveness is probably 1 in 10 million (for a national presidential election?) so... using math... p=.0000001 .0000001 VOTE = 20 USD my vote has to equal 200 Mil in order for it to make sense in my head to vote... _________________ Hi Last edited by Rin on Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Rin
Epic Kitty

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Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 2172

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:54 pm Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

lmao, I got a kick out of your post, at the very least. I suppose the value of voting doesn't seem to be worth it to a lot of people, and I'm generally counted amongst them. But hey, that dude Sanders has won me over, and I think trying to get him into office is worth the cost of voting. If he doesn't get the democratic nomination, I'll just vote for a third party to say fuck the american two-party system ( and have that fuck you registered in the database).

Oh yea they came to my school and were like.... ALL OF YOU SHITS... REGISTER...NOW...

the two party system just leads to two candidates that are pretty similar to each other... (cause theyre trying to win the median moderates who can swing either way)

its a shit system
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HackOtaku
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:55 pm Post subject:

Rin wrote:

awks I added the cost of voting above in the last reply i sent but anyways

if your satisfaction from voting is higher than the costs, you should vote... cause... it only makes sense that you do...

I get no satisfaction and my costs are hella high (and because i take into account that probability of my vote even meaning anything into account)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Probability of decisiveness is the probability of my vote being the swinging and tie breaking vote... almost 0.... for any election

but lets assume i value my hour of work at 20 USD and voting takes me an hour (cause it does)

the probability of decisiveness is probably 1 in 10 million (for a national presidential election?)

so... using math... p=.0000001

.0000001 VOTE = 20 USD

my vote has to equal 200 Mil in order for it to make sense in my head to vote...

Haha, you are funny Rin. I guess it's just a difference in perspective. I know my vote doesn't mean a lot, but I also know snowflakes don't mean much in an avalanche, but it still needed each one. I also generally waste my time, so I don't value it nearly as highly. (I also think election day should be a federal holiday, so you really shouldn't be working on that day anyway.)

EDIT: Damn it! I deleted my post because I just read your edit, you are too stealthy.

Rin
Epic Kitty

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Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 2172

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:57 pm Post subject:

A lot of guys around here get like 2 hours off (mostly because everyone within about a 5 hour driving radius is a federal worker or (sub)contractor) Edit: NINJA _________________ Hi

HackOtaku
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:00 am Post subject:

It's a step in the right direction. I'm willing to bet there's a fair number of people who don't vote because they are working that day, and who wants to stand around for an hour or more after working all day just to vote in an election where your vote doesn't mean too much.

Rin
Epic Kitty

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Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 2172

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:03 am Post subject:

HackOtaku wrote:

It's a step in the right direction. I'm willing to bet there's a fair number of people who don't vote because they are working that day, and who wants to stand around for an hour or more after working all day just to vote in an election where your vote doesn't mean too much.

yup, people get lazy (though some take the break and just have longer lunch break; perverse incentives that also lead to abuse of the system

the break is only meant for people who are actually voting, but its not like the employer can check if you actually went out and voted)
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atom0s
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:21 am Post subject:

Some stats for the past elections:

Code:

2012
- Popular Vote
   -> Obama : 65,918,507 (51.01%)
   -> Romney: 60,934,407 (47.15%)
- Electoral Vote
   -> Obama : 332 (61.7%)
   -> Romney: 206 (38.3%)

Popular vote and electoral vote won.

27 states blue.
23 states red.

Total votes: 129,235,558

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

2008
- Popular Vote
   -> Obama : 69,499,428 (52.86%)
   -> McCain: 59,950,323 (45.60%)
- Electoral Vote
   -> Obama : 365 (67.8%)
   -> McCain: 173 (32.3%)

Popular vote and electoral vote won.

28 states blue.
22 states red.

Total votes: 131,473,705

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

2004
- Popular Vote
   -> Bush : 62,039,572 (50.73%)
   -> Kerry : 59,027,115 (48.26%)
- Electoral Vote
   -> Bush : 286 (53.2%)
   -> Kerry : 251 (46.7%)

Popular vote and electoral vote won.

20 states blue.
30 states red.

Total votes: 122,303,590

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

2000
- Popular Vote
   -> Bush : 50,462,412 (47.87%)
   -> Gore : 51,009,810 (48.38%)
- Electoral Vote
   -> Bush : 271 (50.4%)
   -> Gore : 266 (49.4%)

Popular vote lost. Electoral vote won.

21 states blue.
29 states red.

Total votes: 105,425,985

The only election recently that the popular vote did not decide the winner was in 2000. (Which shows a fundamental flaw in the electoral college system.) (This same flaw has happened in past elections as well.)

Something to note here is that the vote count has gone up every year expect for last. And even then the drop was not that significant. So I'm not too sure why there is a huge stir saying that so many people are not voting anymore.

Personally I think the claim of lack of voting is just due to primary numbers and not actual election numbers. For example, this was 2012's primary numbers:

Code:

6,274,677 - Total Democratic Primary Votes
18,793,770 - Total Republican Primary Votes

A side note here too is that Hilary actually won the primary popular vote yet Obama is the one that landed up winning.

Where as, in 2008 it was:

Code:

35,442,193 - Total Democratic Primary Votes
20,039,034 - Total Republican Primary Votes

That is a huge decrease in votes during the primaries.

So I think that the cry for people to vote is due to the primary decreases and not so much during the actual election.

Either way I hate politics and think that our current system of government is complete garbage. We have people in the Senate that are 70+ years old that have served more then half their age in the house. The Senate passed into law that the President is to serve no more then 4 years and two terms. Yet they are sitting in their sets for 60+ years.

One of the reasons the USA takes so long for change to ever happen and progress to be made is because of these people that still live in a world that they think exists but does not. They feel the USA should stay in its archaic stage of life rather then progress, become more accepting, and really honor what our country stands for. So we have 70-80 year olds voting on things like gay rights where, of course, they are going to vote against it since its how they were brought up in life, what they were taught, etc.
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HackOtaku
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:30 am Post subject:

atom0s wrote:

So I'm not too sure why there is a huge stir saying that so many people are not voting anymore.

I don't think it's that not so many people are voting anymore as much as it is that not enough people are voting in the first place.

Quote:

Voter turnout dipped from 62.3 percent of eligible citizens voting in 2008 to an estimated 57.5 in 2012. That figure was also below the 60.4 level of the 2004 election but higher than the 54.2 percent turnout in the 2000 election.Nov 8, 2012

Source

So, we have a little over half of the eligible people who can vote actually showing up to do so, which leaves an extremely large number of people unaccounted for in the elections. Just my take.

I'm completely with you in regards to the senate/house.

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