Geri I'll reply later. Jorg hi... the economy is already in trouble. And I don't think overpopulation is that big of a deal. Look at japan... they have about half the population of the United States, all crammed into a country the size of california. If you use google maps and zoom into nearly any random location of the United States, chances are you'll see miles and miles of farmland. The thing is, if we were robots, we wouldn't need all this farmland, and we could instead build cities.
Dunno what to say about the Government losing power and control... but from what Geri has said, that would be a good thing, I guess.
And lol @ Saviour... "do NOT". I respect the warning it's just funny how you're like "do NOT do it" lol.
Edit:
Geri, I found a popular article on digg actually stating that life is getting better all around the world. Crime and violence is decreasing, and people are getting happier.
In fact, you going off about how bad the world is, actually proves me even more right. It is an evolutionary trait. I quote:
Quote:
Some scientists believe its an evolutionary trait in which allowed our species to survive in the past. If you didn't pay attention to bad things, and bad things happened, then you've won a Darwin award and your gene pool seizes to exist. Therefore its in the species best interest to pay attention to bad things. Now you probably aren't going to be eaten by a tiger these days but its still an important tool nonetheless.
Yeah, I don't doubt that some of these things are true, but this is just one part of the story and the article is mainly focusing on the USA or on general, not so important things.
Murder, violence, and death
The violance and number of murders has been clearly decreased in most countries as technology is better now and criminals have a higher chance of getting caught. There are security cameras everywhere and even though this is decreasing Your personal freedom, it is increasing security. But this isn't really mean that humans became better, only that criminals can be controlled more easily with increasing the security while decreasing the freedom. But if a country will be less stable because of a crisis, it will need to decrease the freedom even more, to maintain the security.
As for wars, to get the big picture, You need to go further back in time than the 20th century. Wars have an essential part in the present economy system. It is obvious that if a country is conquering a territory, it will loot the other country and this is obviously good to the winner's economy. On the other hand, of course it is bad for the other country. So what happened in the past centuries:
When an advanced country was out of resources, or simply wanted more, they have conquered a weaker country. That's how the huge imperial system built up until about 1900. Then there was nothing more to conquer and guess what, World War has broken out in hopes to get territories from other countries. After the World War, economical crisis was inevitable as most countries were in ruins. Dictators came to power in the most hopeless countries and even the USA has restricted freedom and the governments has taken control over the economy of the country. Millions have starved and died, they had to work fuckin hard and of course they started to re-build their military power to restore the balance in a second match. World War 2 was inevitable again. And then of course, crisis again. Then the cold war, crisis again. War against Afganistan and Iraq, then crisis again. Now war against Iraq again... crisis... war... crisis... war.
This is how the system is working. So when You think that things couldn't be better, it doesn't hurt to think about the other countries and how will they affect the global economy on the long run. Things seems to be easy for now, the Middle-East has lots of oil and it seems to be infinite (so super-powers can loot it as long as they want), of course this isn't true.
Imagine that the Middle-East is running out of oil and there is no other weak country that could be conquered. Russia and China are both interested in taking out the USA and they shouldn't be taken lightly. In fact, a new war maybe closer than we would think.
Things are looking fine now but sooner or later, shit will happen again. As it has happened before many times.
Abortion and Sex
This isn't a problem that couldn't be solved easily so no reason to waste time with it. But it could become a problem if people would just stop dying. Even though people are dying now and advanced countries are trying to reduce the number of births, the human population of the planet is increasing. Just be optimistic and count that 1 child is born per second (there is more of course). That means 86400 child per day and more than 1.5 million people per month. And the real numbers would be higher.
Living Conditions
Quote:
And finally, living conditions. Despite the recession, living conditions have significantly improved for most people over the last few decades.
This is simply not true and people are not complaining for nothing. In many countries, the living conditions became worse. The inflation is rising in a higher pace than the salaries. And in most countries where living conditions has increased, it was that way because the government is borrowing more and more money and the debts of the countries are higher and higher. Just look at some charts to see how are the numbers are climbing up steadily. Most of the countries that are not in deep shit have something very valuable (tons of oil) or they are not really caring about the people (China), so they don't spend money to keep them happy and everything, they just suppress them.
So what will happen when these countries will not be able to borrow more money and keep up the social system which is aiding the people? Year by year, this event is just getting closer and closer. Imagine what will happen if a government is totally, finally running out of money. No aid for the people, no anything just massive amount of debt. This isn't far away either. In fact, some countries have almost gone total bankrupt with this crisis and only borrowing even more money could save them (and I am not talking about 3rd world countries). The next crisis will surely finish them off, but that would be optimistic. I say this will happen even sooner. Probably in a few years. The rest of them will follow it as the falling countries' economy will ruin the global economy. The most independent and isolated countries will last the longer.
Quote:
Poverty rates (as measured by the percentage of people living on less than $1 a day) have been decreasing in all regions of the world for the last few decades.
Yeah since the value of the USD dropped, it isn't hard to earn more money, which is in fact has less value than before. Comparing the lifestyle to a currency which is loosing it's value is just plain dumb. Of course people are earning more USD if it is worth less and they need more to stay alive. It is like if someone would get an apple, cut it in half and would say "I have 2 apples now". It is ridiculous.
Quote:
Other indicators of human development (such as literacy and life expectancy) have been getting better as well.
Let us see what will happen if there will be no money for school and healthcare because of reasons that I have explained already.
Quote:
For most parts of the world, the last decade has been the best ever.
It isn't hard to live better if You borrow tons of money. Just keep up the happy smile when You have to pay it back too.
Quote:
In the United States, things have also been getting better for the poor
And the debt has increased to 13 trillion dollars. It isn't really that high. Many countries have higher ratio of debts compared to their GDP.
Conclusion
Quote:
So why do we hear people talking about how bad and dangerous the world has become?
It didn't become, it WILL become, as things are going on a wrong way. It isn't pretty even know, but it will be worse.
Quote:
Warning people about the dangers and problems they face (even if they are not real) is a great rhetorical tool to get people to pay attention to you and follow your advice. It is also a natural human reaction to filter our memories and remember the past as the “good old days.”
Well I didn't say that things were better in the past, humans are just the same. We just forgot the bad things and think they will never return. But they will. The dangers that I have mentioned are obviously real as anyone with an opened eye can see it. Simply ignoring the other parts of things is a good way to convince someone about something (propaganda). But I prefer to be vigilant and form my decisions and opinions only if I think that I see at least part of the full picture.
So yeah, we have a better life, we are fuckin rich. And on the other hand, we have tons of debt, which means we are in fact fuckin poor, we just don't realize it yet, until payback time will come. And we live in peace, while tension is growing between the super-powers, so we need to be aware that this peace will not last forever.
I am not a depressed guy or something, I am realist. And I love to be aware of the dangers that are lurking out there as being careless and ignorant doesn't solve the problems. And sooner or later, You have to face the consequences. _________________
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 2276 Location: Minnesota
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:13 pm Post subject:
You guys cannot propose anything. Not even your evolutionary ideas can promote ideas, as due to the fact that such evolution would take hundreds of thousands of years to occur, when life would have already changed to the maximum. Our current ideas would be nothing compared to the future. So this arguing would be useless. Because they would have already created a solution, or evolved into the solution.
Are you assuming that these highly superior evolved robots will not have enough common sense to calculate a survival plan???
Geri, what the fuck do you propose? World-wide communism? Because that doesn't work either.
No, I don't propose anything. This isn't about discussing which type of governmental form would be the best. In fact, it shows that none of them is perfect so far.
ipivb's opinion is that the world is perfect and we will be super-humans and live happily with eternal life.
My opinion is that this kind of technology would cause even more problems, because of the human mentality. We don't even have a perfect government in any country because humans are greedy. Also, the current system shows that freedom is good for the people but bad for the economy and not so free forms of government may be better for the economy but just because they sacrifice people for the cause.
I don't see how would humanity live together in peace for an eternity when there is always tension between the people.
So no, I am not proposing anything just explaining what is the current situation at the moment and what is in the way of this evolutionary step. I think it is not possible to take this step without completely changing the human mentality, instincts and that is a much bigger challenge than simply building robots.
Also if we remove that, we will not be humans anymore, as these things are part of humanity.
The best that could happen is that humans will disappear and some stupid robots will take their place. Which is certainly not the same as if we would live eternally. I prefer living a normal life and dying than living eternally in a boring metal world where nothing is happening, nothing is exciting and no one is doing anything at all. _________________
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 2276 Location: Minnesota
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject:
Life, no matter how accurate and perfect your 'genes' are, they don't specifically call for a thought, nor action. They may steer towards things, but humans have free will. This is what allows us to advance, and create new technology, including robots. The thought of becoming a robot, would not only destroy our free will, but prevent future imagination, ending our cycle of creation (from the simple cave men ideas, to pure idiotic robots).
You can only say humans evolving into robots is good, until the point of life makes it.
Geri, I don't know what to say. elpacco took the words out of my mouth. The only thing I can add is that if none of the governments are perfect so far, it's likely they never will be. In any case, you are extremely lucky that you were born exactly in this time... in fact, it's almost unbelievably unlikely. Humans have never been happier. At the same time, it's likely true that we've never been more depressed. But a good analogy is simply having a job. You can either not have a job, and you wont be forced to work hard, but you also wont gain as much pleasure. Or you can have a job and spend some of your time in misery, in exchange for a higher amount of pleasure during your free time. I'd say any problems we have with the government or way the world works is a small price to pay for the incredible entertainment and pleasure we have now days. It couldn't be any other way.
Jorg hi, hopefully this is not getting too off topic, and I hate to bring this discussion back up... but free will is defined as the ability to make one's own decisions without restriction. Unfortunately, the decisions of the human mind are restricted to the completely predetermined pathways that neurons will fire in any specific moment, with any specific conditions. In other words, given the exact same situation, you will *always* make the exact same decision. This, in some sense, prevents free will from ever having any true meaning...
Furthermore, our first and most likely idea of "becoming a robot" would actually be a robot body, with a regular human mind. In this case, our behavior would still be essentially the same, just we wouldn't have the limitations that come with a vulnerable human body. In the hopeful event that we can completely replicate the human brain with cells/nanochips that age much slower (and still keep our consciousness), there's no reason why we would lose our imagination or what you consider to be "free will". The reason is because it would function exactly the same way as a regular brain, much like computer generated physics function exactly the same way they do in real life (assuming perfectly correct variables).
If you throw a baseball at a card house over and over again with exactly the same:
-baseball
-card house
-velocity
-air resistance
-gravity
-relative location
At the same:
-relative time
-angle
-distance
-spin
-initial rotation
-direction
Then the card house will fall in exactly the same way, every time. In other words, it's completely predictable. The same is true for the human brain: if it has the same conditions, it will have the same result.
However, this has some downsides to our idea of a robotic mind. The human brain doesn't just work off of firing neurons that can be emulated with a simple computer chip. Most of what the brain does is based on chemicals that the brain releases (or the body introduces). It is safe to say that no technology could ever create nanochips that react to these chemicals in the same way (or emulate them perfectly). And it's unlikely that genetically engineered brain cells could be designed to age slower, yet keep their functionality.
Therefor... the only way this would be possible is the following scenario. If technology were to advance to extremes that we cannot even imagine, we may be able to somehow replace old brain cells with new ones, piece by piece. The reason this may work is because if you replace the brain piece by piece, crucial parts of the brain such as memory may still be in tact because as you remove the old brain cells and insert the new ones, memories may be copied onto the new brain cells, which you could then replace the ones that were copied from, and so on. Right now we don't know enough about the brain to really know if this is possible, because we don't know even theoretically if certain parts of the brain are associated with certain memories, or if memories are stored in multiple copies.
This is probably confusing, so let me simplify it with a computer analogy. Lets say you have a bunch of image files of the exact same picture. You could remove one, and then copy another image file onto it, and you will have essentially exactly what you had before, except it is a new file (with a more recent time stamp). You could repeat this until all of the files are new files, but contain the same images as before.
We don't know if the brain works like that, or if the brain only has "one file" for each memory, meaning that you'd have to find some way to copy the old file to the new one before it's replaced/deleted.
Geri, I don't know what to say. elpacco took the words out of my mouth. The only thing I can add is that if none of the governments are perfect so far, it's likely they never will be.
Yep, that's what I said too. Every perfect utopistic vision has gone off-track. Human nature is just not noble enough to grow up to these ideas. We are predators, conquerors. We cannot live in peace because we have ambitions, we have greed. That is standing in the way of every noble idea like "every man is equal" etc. Most people are just thinking equal is a bad thing, I want to be better. And problems are starting...
Quote:
I'd say any problems we have with the government or way the world works is a small price to pay for the incredible entertainment and pleasure we have now days. It couldn't be any other way.
It is true. Dictatoric governments are just suppressing the people or find an enemy for them to hate. When there is an enemy, people will unite against them. What humanity would need, is a common enemy (like aliens) and then we would unite to defeat them.
As for Democracy, it has worked in small communities where nothing was a secret and everyone knew everything. In today's world, You have no idea what is happening above Your head, so You just vote to someone who will do something and things will happen. Democratic governments have problems too and entertainment is the solution to keep the people away from those problems. Movies in the USA were heavily supported by the government in the first World War to introduce heroes and romance and stuff like that in a miserable situation. It worked, so they started to use it to entertain people and to control them. Media and the entertainment is just a tool to keep the people dumb (the reason for keeping them dumb is obvious). That is why I hate TV. You see what they want You to see and You waste Your life on stupid movies instead of learning or doing something that matters. Computer games are the same. For many people, TV is making life bearable. Really. So what would happen without TV and computers?
On the other half of the world, they choosed another method. Killed everyone who was standing in the way and for the majority of the people, they thought shit like Stalin is God and other stuff. Both version has worked but people would vote for the TV instead of being killed so democracy was more popular.
It is true that wherever You see, there is something funny entertaining thing to try out, but You know psychology so it isn't hard to figure out what are they trying to tell You with this or that movie. Or they just simply want to waste 60 minutes of Your life. And finally if You try to watch the news, You see some censored shit which is total fake. We have like 50 channels in my home but I hate to even look at that crap box. And when I go into the room where the TV is turned on, I cannot help but think "what is this crap and why is anyone watching this". Seriously I didn't watch TV for like 10 years now and if I see it now, I feel that this show is for dumb idiots. I feel insulted that they are trying to sell me this quality. If my family wouldn't want it so badly, I wouldn't have a TV at all. I hate most of the computer games too because they are on the same level now and not even entertaining anymore. But it is not a big problem, at least maybe I will find another hobby. My happiest moments in my life wasn't sitting behind the computer or TV, but playing with the kid, working on the house with my girlfriend and doing stuff together. And for that, I didn't need any modern stuff, so it is safe to say that if I would live in another age, I would live a happy life too, because kids and family has always existed.
As for being aware of bad things (or You can say being paranoid if You want, I don't care), I am the kind of people who is usually solving other's problems. My friends are always coming to me if they have a problem because I am usually right and I always have a plan B to solve their problem. Maybe I am constantly worrying about problems, but this also means that I am ready to solve them too, while the majority of the people is just plain careless and if something is wrong, they are clueless about the solution. It's just like they are kids who are running to their parents. So I don't really have a problem with my attitude because it is useful for me and for others too.
EDIT:
Btw. I think it is somewhat funny that people doesn't learn anything at all about politics when there are so many empire building game. Even in the ages old Civilization (1), the key to keep Your empire in one piece was to keep the balance between taxes, science and luxuries (entertainment), or just use some dictatoric method and garrison armies in Your cities.
It is funny that we are playing games and use the same methods in the games that governments are using in reality, but we doesn't realize what's going on.
When Your people are not happy in the game and want to revolt, You just spend some on luxuries and entertainment so they shut up. They will even celebrate You.
When You are not happy in Your real life, You just get a game to entertain Yourself and play that You are the boss. You see what I mean.
We know how is the system working, we are just not aware that the system is real and we are part of it. _________________
... You aren't trolling right? I mean don't take it the wrong way but... you are the biggest government conspiracist I've ever seen. I know there are people who think the government is out to get them but... I mean really lol? Again, don't take this the wrong way... but do you also believe the government is hiding UFOs from us and we never went to the moon? And the FBI is listening to you through your TV? I know you already mentioned subliminal messaging.
From reading your post I can't help but to be reminded of this video...
... You aren't trolling right? I mean don't take it the wrong way but... you are the biggest government conspiracist I've ever seen. I know there are people who think the government is out to get them but... I mean really lol? Again, don't take this the wrong way... but do you also believe the government is hiding UFOs from us and we never went to the moon? And the FBI is listening to you through your TV? I know you already mentioned subliminal messaging.
From reading your post I can't help but to be reminded of this video...
Lol. No I am not like that.
I think it is obvious that I am Hungarian (if You look at the site under my posts). My country has seen dictatorship and democracy too and I had the chance to experience both and see the differences.
I also like history and I have a bit deeper knowledge than the average shit that they teach in school.
I like psychology a bit and I try to understand other people.
In summary, I am just a curious type of guy who can even enjoy reading a lexikon. I have read bunch of books about the history of different countries, kings, presidents, dictators and so on and on. I also read some about psychology, how can You understand other people and how is psychology used by governments and companies to control people (first one is called propaganda, second is called marketing).
I don't speak about UFOs or subliminal messaging, I speak about the slow but reliable methods. Like how did the companies used Freud's ideas to start creating the consumer society and how did they develop marketing which is obviously part of our daily life already. And how did governments used different methods to convince people to follow them. How do they create goals, ideas, enemies, nationalism to guide the people in the right direction (obviously Hitler shown that this method can achieve a lot, Mein Kampf is I think forbidden now in most countries, but it has some very interesting parts).
The key to successfull political career is manipulating everyone (this is obvious) so I don't see why should anyone trust in governments which are full of manipulators.
And most information that You get in the TV is censored and fake. This is a fact. My country's media is all about "the current government is awesome". This isn't really surprising as everyone with a little knowledge about my country knows that the media is censored here. I just look up some foreign news sites and I see info like "Hungary has a populist leader" "dictatoric methods" "communist methods" etc etc. It isn't surprising for me but many people are not aware of this because they are completely blind. They think they are living in a democratic country. Foolish thinking, everyone except them knows this is not true. They use the same methods as some communists leaders used like 50 years ago. And the best thing is, they attack the socialist government which is in fact following democratic methods. So it is ironic and funny at the same time.
Similar situations in the USA. All You see in the TV is that everything is fine or You have problems but the government is working on it and everything for the people blahblah. In other countries, they just laugh on the shit that You can see on the news channels. The past 10 years has been spent convincing the people of the USA that they are fighting against terrorists while all they wanted is to get some oil from the Middle-East. The USA is one of the greatest aggressors but they always act like they are defending themselves, because (another basic principle about democracy:) people will not support aggressors but they will support war when they feel they are threatened and they are angered. It is just like as You have read too:
Quote:
Warning people about the dangers and problems they face (even if they are not real) is a great rhetorical tool to get people to pay attention to you and follow your advice.
That's what they call "creating a common enemy".
So an enemy was needed again, just like many times before and as there was no other obviously evil country in sight, they invented the invisible enemy (terrorists) and every country which is supporting the invisible enemy is nuked. This is the very same shit that was going on in the cold war against the Soviet Union, the only difference is that the SU has been changed to terrorists, soviet spys has been replaced by terrorists sleeping cells inside the USA's border etc etc.
There is always an enemy, to keep the people united.
So I am not trolling and I have bunch of articles and books about history, bad thing is they are in hungarian so I cannot send them, but if You look around on the net and take a look at what I am saying, You can see that it is all true. It is not even a secret. People just don't care to read or learn anymore, that's why they can be fooled easily.
And yeah the last thing I forgot to say that usually a book is showing something from one perspective only, so You need to read some books from the other side too to have a picture about what could be true.
Guess what, Montgomery's and Rommel's bios are totally the opposite to each other even though they should describe the same events.
Same goes for every other writer or event that has happened in history.
EDIT:
And to be on topic too, one of the biggest problems with the human nature is it's inability to accept if something or someone is "different". I speak about racists for example. I wonder what would be the reaction if some more advanced people (like half-robot humans) would appear.
EDIT 2:
As for "people are lazy to read", it is not really their fault as the number of functional analphabet's are raising steadily and it isn't their fault but the fault of the educational system and in some cases the parent's (if they can read correctly at all). So apologies to those who just didn't learn to read properly because of stupid teachers and educational system.
And as for the FBI/CIA thing, it is funny that people are afraid from FBI spies while companies are spying on You all day. They spy on You on Facebook and Myspace and wherever they can. All big online payment processor company is spying on it's customers, especially if they spend a lot. They want to check Your identity on social networking sites and if they can't and You are suspicious to them, they hire private detectives to check on You, make some photos to see how do You look like, how much do You earn etc. It is part of their protocol against credit card fraud that they call "risk management" and of course they spy on masses to help their marketing decisions. If You would know how many data do they have about customers, You would be freaked out. _________________
Well I have to say we've never had terrorists attack in Utah, but the damn gas prices sure have been attacking my wallet!!!!!! I say GO for that damn oil and get as much as we can. If we have to say we're after terrorists so the UN doesn't go against us, so be it. The price of gas is the biggest threat to Americans, not terrorists. Terrorists affect thousands of people... gas prices affect every damn person in the country (hundreds of millions).
I do think that many people would be "racist" against the cybogs. In fact people already are, and they don't even exist yet. Probably most people I know would oppose it because it's unnatural. I don't see it that way though. I say live naturally as long as you can, but living as a robot is better than dying.
And you are saying that if I wasn't on social media websites, Visa and Paypal would be hiring private detectives to spy on me? I knew that white van following me around everywhere with the satellite on top was suspicious! And the people in weird suites that go through my car when I'm not in it! OMFG that's where all my socks went!!!!! I knew they couldn't have just disappeared!!!! They must be extracting my DNA =O
Well I have to say we've never had terrorists attack in Utah, but the damn gas prices sure have been attacking my wallet!!!!!! I say GO for that damn oil and get as much as we can. If we have to say we're after terrorists so the UN doesn't go against us, so be it. The price of gas is the biggest threat to Americans, not terrorists. Terrorists affect thousands of people... gas prices affect every damn person in the country (hundreds of millions).
Yep, kinda what You said.
Quote:
I do think that many people would be "racist" against the cybogs. In fact people already are, and they don't even exist yet. Probably most people I know would oppose it because it's unnatural.
Unnatural is just one thing. I would be worried about the fact that cyborgs would be better than normal humans which would cause lots and lots of problems. Fear, unbalance, wars and stuff like that.
Quote:
And you are saying that if I wasn't on social media websites, Visa and Paypal would be hiring private detectives to spy on me?
No they don't have to do that, they already know everything about You if You have a bank account. I mean websites/companies who are offering online purchases. Like an online casino for example. They don't know Your personal info in such details as Visa but if You buy like 2000 credits, they will instantly start analyzing how do You have so much money to spend on shit like their service as they want to avoid chargebacks. So when You sign up somewhere and spend more than the average, they will look into who are You as they don't want problems when it turns out You are just playing with Your parent's credit card or a stolen card or similar.
Most people is just checked on social networks but if that is not enough for them, they will get more details. And if You ever threaten them with a chargeback, even for just fun, You can be sure they will be on top of You.
This is true to all major websites where You can spend lots of money. You can test it by signing up somewhere and start spending money. Sooner or later, You will be "blocked" and You get e-mails to identify Yourself (like send an ID card or similar) and they will not authorize more transactions until they are sure it is safe to accept Your money.
This is especially true if the service they offer is somewhat addictive (casino, porn site, pharmacy and other stuff) or if the company is offering to lend You money in some sort of way. _________________
Well I do owe Paypal $1,117 dollars. Got $800 of buyer's credit and spent on weed/cocaine, then ordered a $200 graphics card and used by bank's debit card as backup funding so paypal paid newegg, but then my bank's card was denied so paypal was stuck with the debt. Is this like dividing by zero? They already dinged my credit and tried suing me but I ignored it and nothing happened.
And yes I agree it would cause unbalance. Normal racism is fueled by basic things like lack of understanding, stereotypes, etc but this would be a new level of racism fueled by intimidation and fear.
If the process of suing and getting the money cost more than the debt itself, there is a chance that they let it go. If not, on a bright sunny day, some nice looking guys will stand at Your door with a bill, asking You to pay or meet them in court. This is depending on the company and how do they process the debts. Some are aggressive and some are just letting people go with smaller debts. _________________
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