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Let's talk about Christianity, paganism, and false idols
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
lmao yeah ok
you realise that we don't expect you to admit it because you are delusional right?

What EXACTLY is it that I'm delusional about. Wanting world peace, and accomplishing a world where man doesn't have to work, because AI takes care of that? I could easily say YOU'RE ALL delusional because you don't share the same reality I wish to realize, but what would that accomplish?

you're seriously one of the main reasons atheists get a bad reputation in whole. Because you don't want to see others embrace their ideas and dreams, because they are based on religion and philosophy.

I believe that someone like talix can have their caliphate. But in some other reality, in their head, or in a simulation, but certainly not mine. Not yours. Not the one we all share and cherish.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah why not point out your motives rather than the actual things you could possibly be delusional about, that'll show me! I'm not gonna point them out, it's fucking shit loads of claims you make about everything over and over and as I have said you are what you describe Talix to be when it comes to the holier than thou shit, being delusional since drug use etc.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
greatsage wrote:
islam advocates for separation of church and state, and the freedom of religion.

LMFAO OK


True Islam teaches that every human being has the right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion without the threat of coercion or punishment. This understanding stems directly from the Holy Quran, which clearly declares, “There is no compulsion in religion” (2:257).


Therefore, True Islam wholeheartedly supports the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as well as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights—both of which, like True Islam, guarantee freedom of conscience, religion, and speech.
The Holy Quran and the life of the Holy Prophet Muhammad salah Allahu alayhe wa salaam demonstrate that True Islam does not sanction death or any other worldly punishment for changing one’s faith (i.e., apostasy). For example, the Holy Quran declares, “And if Allah had enforced His will, they would not have set up gods with Him. And We have not made [Muhammad] a keeper over them nor art thou over them a guardian” (6:108). This verse demonstrates that no person has any right to compel others in matters of faith. Forced faith is no faith at all. True Islam recognizes that Islam only permits capital punishment as a possible consequence of murder or treason.

In response to those who insult or deride Islam, i.e. commit “blasphemy,” True Islam advocates complete restraint, just as the Holy Quran prescribes: “And the servants of the Gracious God are those who walk on the earth in a dignified manner, and when the ignorant address them, they say, ‘Peace!’” (25:64). Moreover, the Holy Quran addresses blasphemy on five separate occasions but never permits any worldly punishment for it. Accordingly, True Islam opposes the current anti-blasphemy laws in Muslim-majority countries.

True Islam condemn any worldly punishment levied upon an apostate or a blasphemer because it recognizes that only God can judge any act of apostasy or blasphemy. Therefore, True Islam advocates freedom of conscience, religion, and speech as a fundamental tenet of Islam.

True Islam teaches that Islam advocates complete separation of mosque and state. The Holy Quran does not endorse a specific form of government, but instead requires that justice oversee whatever form is used: “Verily, God commands you to make over the trusts to those entitled to them, and that, when you govern between men, you judge with justice” (4:59). Therefore, True Islam recognizes that justice, not religion, is the determinative factor when governing society.

The Holy Quran categorically forbids imposition of Islamic Shariah and forbids all religious compulsion, stating, “There is no compulsion in matters of faith” (2:257). Any attempt to implement Shariah on non-Muslims would be tantamount to coercion, and therefore function in direct opposition to the Holy Quran.

In Arabic, Shariah simply means “a path” and refers to the rules and customs that guide Muslim life in aspects ranging from daily prayers to familial and financial matters. The Holy Prophet Muhammad salah Allahu alayhe wa salaam never imposed Islamic Shariah on non-Muslims. On the contrary, as the de facto ruler of Arabia, he settled disputes between Arab citizens according to their individual faiths—offering them a choice between the Jewish law, Islamic Shariah, or secular arbitration. Therefore, Islamic precedent ensures a strict separation of mosque and state, especially with matters pertaining to non-Muslim minorities.

Likewise, the Holy Quran, while addressing the Holy Prophet Muhammad salah Allahu alayhe wa salaam, states, “Admonish, therefore, for thou art but an admonisher; thou art not appointed a keeper over them” (88:22-23). The Holy Prophet Muhammad salah Allahu alayhe wa salaam was accountable for the plain delivery of the message, not its imposition. True Islam recognizes that like the Holy Prophet Muhammad salah Allahu alayhe wa salaam, no Muslim can require others to adhere to Islam.

Islam pleads for the secular type of government more than any religion and more than any political system. The very essence of secularism is that absolute justice must be practiced regardless of the differences of faith and religion and color and creed and group. This is exactly what the Holy Quran admonishes us to do in matters of state.

Therefore, True Islam recognizes that separation of mosque and state.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too like to ignore the overarching narrative of Islam and many verses ordering death for apostasy and talking about the caliphate Smile))
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


Link



Dudes comment from a different video regarding "islamophobia"




There are 4 types of deceptions in Islam.

1)Taqiyya - Taqiyya allows Muslims to lie or conceal their true faith, feelings, thoughts, plans, and character, for the purpose of protecting themselves. It is fully based on Quran and is agreed to and practiced by all major sects of Islam.

“When it is possible to achieve an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible, and lying is obligatory if the goal is obligatory."

2)Tawriya - Tawriya allows Muslims to “creatively lie” by being purposely ambiguous about the real meaning of what they are saying.

Example
"You are getting it wrong/ You are taking it out of context/ Ohh it's not the real meaning of that verse."

You wouldn't search context in case of a wife beating husband? would you? But there's verse in Quran for this too, a man can legally beat any of his wives from whom he senses arrogance or disobedience.

Here's the verse,
https://quran.com/4/34

3. Kitman - Kitman is a term that means Muslims are permitted to tell half-truths, or partial truths, while concealing the greater whole truth. Discussion of “jihad” as being only an “inner” or “spiritual” struggle is an example of Kitman, as technically it is true that jihad refers to spiritual struggle, but conceals the very real physical aspect that is also encompassed by jihad. When the whole world becomes muslim, then jihad will only mean spiritual struggle, but since it's not, physical struggle is encouraged in Quran, the few muslims who chose the path of physical jihad are called "martyrs" and will be granted access to heaven in consideration, physical struggle is allowed to get disbelievers on the right path i.e Islam !

4. Muruna - Muruna is perhaps the biggest deception practiced by Muslims, as it allows them to be “flexible” regarding the commands of their faith in order to properly blend in with the society around them. Muruna permits Muslims to shave their beards, wear Western clothing, listen to Western music, and even drink alcohol.
All of these deceptions go against specific commandments, as well as the overarching commandment against lying itself, that are found in the Quran. But they are allowed so long as their use contributes to a greater goal or serves a greater commandment within the Quran, like spreading Islam among the disbelievers.

(Note - Not all western muslims know about Muruna or Kitman, especially the younger generation in this case, but the older generation and especially the islamic preachers & debaters very well know about all 4 deceptions and accordingly use it to their advantage.)

Edit - I am reporting comments which are unnecessarily accusing me of islamophobia, i don't hate individual followers of any religion. I am specifically talking about ideology or system of ideas here, and ideas by their very nature are debatable.
If you have any doubts you can google search all these 4 deceptions, no need to take me word for word !

Some peaceful verses from the official & secure site of Quran, now not all followers may believe it, but it doesn't help the fact these are the words of all knowing perfect being !
https://quran.com/8/12-14



Link



More of a reason to understand whatever Taylor says is absolute bullshit because it genuinely stems from a place of insecurity, self loathing and lack of acceptance for the reality we all share.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(dib1500) wrote:

Link



Dudes comment from a different video regarding "islamophobia"




There are 4 types of deceptions in Islam.

1)Taqiyya - Taqiyya allows Muslims to lie or conceal their true faith, feelings, thoughts, plans, and character, for the purpose of protecting themselves. It is fully based on Quran and is agreed to and practiced by all major sects of Islam.

“When it is possible to achieve an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible, and lying is obligatory if the goal is obligatory."

2)Tawriya - Tawriya allows Muslims to “creatively lie” by being purposely ambiguous about the real meaning of what they are saying.

Example
"You are getting it wrong/ You are taking it out of context/ Ohh it's not the real meaning of that verse."

You wouldn't search context in case of a wife beating husband? would you? But there's verse in Quran for this too, a man can legally beat any of his wives from whom he senses arrogance or disobedience.

Here's the verse,
https://quran.com/4/34

3. Kitman - Kitman is a term that means Muslims are permitted to tell half-truths, or partial truths, while concealing the greater whole truth. Discussion of “jihad” as being only an “inner” or “spiritual” struggle is an example of Kitman, as technically it is true that jihad refers to spiritual struggle, but conceals the very real physical aspect that is also encompassed by jihad. When the whole world becomes muslim, then jihad will only mean spiritual struggle, but since it's not, physical struggle is encouraged in Quran, the few muslims who chose the path of physical jihad are called "martyrs" and will be granted access to heaven in consideration, physical struggle is allowed to get disbelievers on the right path i.e Islam !

4. Muruna - Muruna is perhaps the biggest deception practiced by Muslims, as it allows them to be “flexible” regarding the commands of their faith in order to properly blend in with the society around them. Muruna permits Muslims to shave their beards, wear Western clothing, listen to Western music, and even drink alcohol.
All of these deceptions go against specific commandments, as well as the overarching commandment against lying itself, that are found in the Quran. But they are allowed so long as their use contributes to a greater goal or serves a greater commandment within the Quran, like spreading Islam among the disbelievers.

(Note - Not all western muslims know about Muruna or Kitman, especially the younger generation in this case, but the older generation and especially the islamic preachers & debaters very well know about all 4 deceptions and accordingly use it to their advantage.)

Edit - I am reporting comments which are unnecessarily accusing me of islamophobia, i don't hate individual followers of any religion. I am specifically talking about ideology or system of ideas here, and ideas by their very nature are debatable.
If you have any doubts you can google search all these 4 deceptions, no need to take me word for word !

Some peaceful verses from the official & secure site of Quran, now not all followers may believe it, but it doesn't help the fact these are the words of all knowing perfect being !
https://quran.com/8/12-14



Link



More of a reason to understand whatever Taylor says is absolute bullshit because it genuinely stems from a place of insecurity, self loathing and lack of acceptance for the reality we all share.



Dib our savior

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1)Taqiyya , which you say is practiced by all major sects of islam, if you look on wikipedia states "Taqiya is an Islamic principle that is Shi'ite in origin,"
shiites make up about 10-15% of muslims. you lie more, as i will show. but before i do so quite clearly, i will also note that on all four of your claims, you gave absolutely no examples, no citations, nothing from the religion of Islam to prove your claims.

1- Allah Almighty's Divine Commands in the Glorious Quran:

Let us look at what Allah Almighty Said in the Glorious Quran regarding:


(a)- Lying and Deceiving:

Throughout the Glorious Quran, Allah Almighty spoke in 100s of Noble Verses about the liars and deceivers, and Promised them Hell Fire for their evil:

"And, do not cloak (and confuse) the truth with falsehood. Do not suppress the truth knowingly. (The Noble Quran, 2:42)"

"And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by God that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of God on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By God, that (her husband) is telling a lie; (The Noble Quran, 24:6-Cool"
"Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of God, (stand forth) themselves as liars! (The Noble Quran, 24:13)"

"No vanity shall they hear therein (in Heaven), nor lying:- (The Noble Quran, 78:35)"

"God give thee grace! why didst thou grant them until those who told the truth were seen by thee in a clear light, and thou hadst proved the liars? (The Noble Quran, 9:43)"

"If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of God on those who lie!" (The Noble Quran, 3:61)"

"Yea, in their own (eyes) will become manifest what before they concealed. But if they were returned, they would certainly relapse to the things they were forbidden, for they are indeed liars. (The Noble Quran, 6:2Cool"

"The leaders of the Unbelievers among his people said: "Ah! we see thou art an imbecile!" and "We think thou art a liar!" (The Noble Quran, 7:66)"

"And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against God and His Apostle aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; But God doth declare that they are certainly liars. (The Noble Quran, 9:107)"

"And the Unbelievers say to those who believe: "Follow our path, and we will bear (the consequences) of your faults." Never in the least will they bear their faults: in fact they are liars! (The Noble Quran, 29:12)"

"Is it not to God that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than God (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to God." Truly God will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But God guides not such as are false and ungrateful. (The Noble Quran, 39:3)"

"Ah! they will know on the morrow, which is the liar, the insolent one! (The Noble Quran, 54:26)"

-------- Taking credit and recognition that you do not deserve:

Let us look at what Allah Almighty Said in Noble Verse 3:188 about the weak-hearted who seek to earn false and unmerited worldly recognitions and credits to themselves:

Noble Verse(s) 3:188
Yusuf Ali:
[003:188] Think not that those who exult in what they have brought about, and love to be praised for what they have not done,- think escape the penalty. For them is a penalty Grievous indeed.


2- Taqiya and the permission to lie under special circumstances:

(a)- What is Taqiya (Taqiyah, Taqiyyah, Taqiyya), and why was it allowed?

(b)- Does the Bible praise Taqiya? Jesus in John 7:1-13 practiced Taqiya.

(c)- Lying is one of the Signs of the Hypocrite!

(a)- What is Taqiya, and why was it allowed?

What is Taqiya? Does Islam really permit lying? Or is this another lie from the anti-Islamics? Taqiya is a permission from Allah Almighty to the Believers, under special circumstances, to:

Not tell the Truth in its complete form. Tell it partially.

To hide the Truth.

To tell the Truth in a vague or fuzzy form.

To tell a lie, or to fabricate a story that is entirely not true.

As to read, please keep in mind the above Noble Verses (in the article), and also the following Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him:

Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three: Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie; and whenever he promises, he breaks his promise; and whenever he is entrusted, he betrays (proves to be dishonest)". (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 117)"

Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three: (1) whenever he speaks, he tells a lie, (2) whenever he is entrusted, he proves to be dishonest, (3) whenever he promises, he breaks his promise. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 847)"

So lying is without a doubt frowned upon and condemned in Islam. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, further said that among the signs of the hypocrite is when he speaks, he lies.



The Justifications for Taqiya:

Taqiyya is derived from Taqi, which one of its meanings is "to guard yourself". For example:

You taqi yourself from the rain by covering yourself under your umbrella.

You taqi yourself from danger by not being careless.

You taqi yourself from tongue-slips by being more careful of the words that exit your mouth.

You taqi yourself from aggressors by taking self-defense classes.
Taqiyya was allowed for the Muslims to guard themselves from the harm and killings of the disbelievers. It's not a license to lie and be wicked and deceptive and evil as I thoroughly demonstrated throughout this entire article. Taqiya was given to the Muslims by Allah Almighty due to the overwhelming persecutions and slaughters that they went through. Bani Yasir (Tribe of Yasir) suffered the most, because they were the smallest and most vulnerable. Many of them were tortured to death because they refused to renounced Islam. Allah Almighty allowed for the Muslims to renounce Islam verbally if they were in such situation, because it is "what's in the heart that matters" (3:29):

Noble Verse(s) 3:28
Yusuf Ali:
[003:028] Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from God: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But God cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to God.

Arabic (Read from right to left. Also, all png image files: [1] [2]):

‏3:28 لايتخذ المؤمنون الكافرين اولياء من دون المؤمنين ومن يفعل ذلك فليس من الله في شئ الا ان تتقوا منهم تقاة ويحذركم الله نفسه والى الله المصير

Keep in mind the many Noble Verses that condemn the liars and lying. So don't think that this is a license for Muslims to be liars, and untrustworthy people. Far be it from us! Islam is big on High Morality and Integrity, and standing up for the Truth and Justice and Mercy:

"And, do not cloak (and confuse) the truth with falsehood. Do not suppress the truth knowingly. (The Noble Quran, 2:42)"

"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well- acquainted with all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:135)"

Now, I fully grant that some Muslims today, especially among the Shias and extremists from the Sunnis, lie and justify their nonsense by things such as:

1- They are in "Darul Harb" (in a nation that is at war with Islam, or is hostile to Islam) according to them.

2- Dealing with enemies.

etc...

Let me answer this with the following:

1- Muslims are EXPECTED to be the best examples to all people:

"You are indeed the best of people ever brought forth for mankind. You enjoin (virtue and) the right (conduct), and you forbid the wrong (and the indecent). Had the people of the book believed, it would have been for their own good. Some among them are the believers, but most of them are evildoers. (The Noble Quran, 3:110)"

2- Muslims are forbidden from tricking or lying to anyone.

3- Muslims are forbidden from leading disbelievers into wickedness, or misleading them, or alluring them into wickedness and evil:

"`Our Lord, make us not a trial (فتنة) for those who disbelieve, and forgive us, our Lord; for, Thou alone art Mighty, the Wise.' (The Noble Quran, 60:5)"

4- Muslim are forbidden from playing around and playing tricks and acting smart with Islam:

"Those who belief and mix not up their belief with injustice - it is they who shall have peace, and who are rightly guided. (The Noble Quran, 6:82)"





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in regards to 4:34,

Questions and Answers about Quranic verse 4:34
By
Karim
(He is a new convert to Islam, from the Netherlands)




“Men are the protectors and maintainers (in a proper and fair manner) of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).” (Qu’ran 4:34)

Notes:
The arabic word used for ‘ill-conduct/rebellion’ = nushooz

The arabic word used in noble verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" ,The word in Arabic means to "strike" or "hit". It inludes everything from a tap with a tooth-stick to what in English we call beating. If it is stated that so-and-so "hit" so-and-so without further description, it would be assumed to be a single blow and it could be of any magnitude. When the Prophet (sas) took a tiny stick and tapped one of the Muslims on the stomach to straighten the ranks in preparation for war, he "hit" him with this meaning. Contrast this to the English phrase: "beat them". The meaning is totally different. If you took a shoe lace and hit someone on the hand with it, you could properly say dharabtahu in Arabic but in English you could never say that you had "beaten" that person.



1 Does the Arabic word 'daraba' necessarily mean "violent or intense or repeated striking?

No, jurists routinely use the expression "daraba al-ma' `ala wajhihi" - lit. strike water upon the face, for someone accomplishing the first rukn of wudu' (washing the face).
Also in Arabic daraba al-ard "to strike the earth" - as in verse 4:94 {When you strike the earth in the cause of Allah} - means to travel, i.e. walking with a staff.

The Prophet (pbuh) also expressed astonishment at the cruelty of certain men when he said: "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening ?" (Bukhari and Muslim).


The crafty little anti-Islam page on domini.org states:


"The Qur'an states:

"Righteous women are therefore obedient, And those you fear may be rebellious (nushuz) admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them."

"Some translators add the word lightly after 'beat them' in Q 4:34. Others like Mohammed Pickthall and Rodwell translate the word 'edrebouhon - beat them' as 'scourge them'. [...] But "a beating without causing injury" (agreed upon)

"So the man has the right to beat his rebellious wife as long as that beating is not like the whipping of the slave and will not result in injury."


Of course the above is false and tendentious but couched in the syrupy style typical of missionaries.

The hadith in Muslim states that the Prophet (pbuh) in his Farewell Pilgrimage said: "Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should TREAT WOMEN WELL. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that - EXCEPT IF THEY COMMIT A MANIFEST INDECENCY. If they do, then refuse to share their beds and hit them WITHOUT INDECENT VIOLENCE . Then, if they obey you, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over them is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision."


Note:


EXCEPT IF THEY COMMIT A MANIFEST INDECENCY = fahisha mubina (which means) : immorality that may lead to adultery

WITHOUT INDECENT VIOLENCE = fadribu hunna darban ghayra mubarrih

· Mubarrih = defined in al-Mawrid as "violent, intense, severe, acute, sharp, excruciating, tormenting, agonizing."

· Qatada said as narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir (5:6Cool: "Ghayr mubarrih means ghayr sha'in = not disgraceful/ outrageous/ obscene/ indecent [beating]."

· Muhammad Asad translates it over-figuratively as “not causing pain”


After this, whatever Muslim man derogates to the recommendation of the Prophet (pbuh) has violated his covenant with the Prophet and shall be called to account for it; and whoever of the non-Muslim men or women claims - even the Archbishop of Canterbury and his wife - that beating women is allowed in Islam, has belied the Divine witness invoked by the Prophet and shall be called to account for it in the Divine Court.


2 What is the evidence for saying that this 'striking' is in fact only supposed to be carried out with something small, like a miswak?

`Ata' said: "I asked Ibn `Abbas: 'What is the hitting that is ghayr al-mubarrih?' He replied: '[With] the siwak and the like'." Narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir (Dar al-Fikr reprint 5:6Cool.

Al-Razi (3:222) mentions that as a rule (a) it must be a light beating and (b) the face must be avoided. He added that certain of the Shafi`i jurists said "a coiled scarf (mindil malfuf) or his hand may be used but not a whip nor a stick."


3 Where is the hadith found in which the Prophet (pbuh) said to a servant-girl who had been extremely late "If I were not afraid of Allah, I would hit you with this" referring to a miswak?

Ibn Sa`d in al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, Al-Tabarani in al-Mu`jam al-Kabir, Abu Ya`la in his Musnad, Abu Nu`aym in Hilyat al-Awliya' and al-Hakim in al-Mustadrak narrated from Umm Salama: "The Prophet (pbuh)was in my house and there was a siwak in his hand. He called for Wasifa [the servant-girl] to come to him or to her [i.e. to serve Umm Salama] but she tarried until anger was visible on his face. So Umm Salama went out to her and found her playing with an animal. She said to her: "You are playing while the Messenger of Allah is calling you?" She replied: "No, by the one who sent you with truth! I did not hear you." Whereupon the Prophet (pbuh) said: "Were it not for fear of exaction (qawad) on the Day of Resurrection, I should surely make you sore (la'awja`tuki) with this toothpick."

Al-Munawi in Fayd al-Qadir mentioned that al-Mundhiri and al-Haythami declared its chain of transmission good. Al-Suyuti graded the hadith "fair" (hasan) in al-Jami` al-Saghir. Al-Muttaqi cited it in Kanz al-`Ummal (#39820, 39821, 39829).


4 What is the exact meaning of 'nushuz'? It is translated as disobedience, but there seem to be others who think it means something more like 'ill-will' or 'hostility' or 'ill-treatment'.

It depends on context and how these terms are themselves understood by those who use them. Ill-treatment on the part of a wife to her husband, for example, is a bit different from ill-treatment on the part of a grocer to his customer.

Nushuz is translated "Recalcitrance, disobedience, violation of marital duties on the part of the wife" in al-Mawrid Ar-Eng Dictionary. Nushuz or "recalcitrance” is here an euphemism for adultery. The wife's primary marital duty is spelled out in the mass-transmitted hadith of the Farewell Pilgrimage (in Sahih Muslim) as "not allowing whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house." Al-Maziri also said that another interpretation of the words in that hadith said it referred to a woman sitting in seclusion with a stranger inside her husband's house. (In al-Nawawi, Sharh Sahih Muslim.)

5. Is it not true that slapping someone on the face is not allowed in Islam? Is there a consensus on this point?

It is a transgression requiring exaction (qawad) which can be changed into monetary compensation (diyya) in the Four Schools, Allah knows best.

6 Has the phrase 'wadribuhunna' in 4:34 normally been interpreted as a command or has it been interpreted as more of a recommendation?

It is not generally permitted to hit one's wife, and the overwhelming instances of hitting that take place in marriages are not only haram but also entail abuse, wrongdoing (dhulm), and a turning away from the example of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), who often instructed his companions not to hit their wives, and who said, when he heard about men who hit their wives, "The best of you are the best to your spouses, and I am the best of you to their spouse." The wives of the Prophet, including A'isha (Allah be pleased with her), relate that he never hit any of his wives.

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: "I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)"





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FOR YOUR MISQUOTATION OF SURAH 8:12-14, AND MOCKING THAT YOU'RE MISQUOTING DOESN'T TAKE AWAY THAT YOU'RE MISQUOTING


Some non-Muslims either through ignorance or Islam-bashing continue taking the verses of the Holy Quran out of context and its history to justify their false propaganda. In order to gain a proper understanding of many verses in the Holy Quran, it is important to understand and know the historic context of the revelations. So many revelations in the Holy Quran came down to provide guidance to Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) and the fellow Muslims based on what they were confronting at that time. The verse 8:12 is one such verse which is misinterpreted. The verse and its brief explanation follows:

008.012 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you:
give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers:
smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."


This verse and the verses before and after were revealed about the Battle of Badr, which occurred in Arabia in the early seventh century. A battle in which the pagans of Makkah traveled more than 200 miles to Madinah with an army of about 1000 to destroy Muslims. Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) and fellow Muslims had suffered severe persecutions and torture for 13 years in the city of Makkah. And now that they had fled Makkah and found a sanctuary in the city of Madinah, they were once again threatened. Muslim Army was only about 300 strong. God Almighty gave the order to Muslims to fight to defend their lives and faith. The enemy came to them with the intent to kill Muslims. It was a war to defend themselves and their Faith. It was a war imposed upon Muslims. Allah sent an army of Angels during the Battle of Badr to fight alongside the Muslims, who won tremendously.

And when you fight, you strive to kill the enemy during the fight.
However, even during the war, Islam has the highest moral law of war. You don't kill children, women or any one who is not fighting with you. See the page on Human Rights in Islam.

You also don't fight, if the enemy wants a peace treaty:

008.061 But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards
peace, and trust in God: for He is One that hears and knows (all things).

God Almighty also says in Chapter 60:

060.008 God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith
nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God
loves those who are just.

060.009 God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith,
and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from
turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these
circumstances), that do wrong.


For the ignorant, misquotation is a habit they enjoy. Misquoting the Holy Quran is a sin and a shame for the one who commits such an act, as God says in the Quran:
Behold! how they invent a lie against Allah! but that by itself is a manifest sin! [The Holy Quran,4:50]
And He says:
Who does more wrong than those who invent a lie against Allah? They will be turned back to the presence of their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord! Behold! The curse of Allah is on those who do wrong! [The Holy Quran,11:18]


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for your nonsense claims on apostasy -- NOWHERE IN QUR'AN IS THERE A PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY.
in islam there is only fighting those who fight you. you can not fight someone who has believed, but you can fight someone who has stopped believing and is fighting you.

scholars who have studied islam know that there is NO PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY IN ISLAM, beyond that of exile.

The absolute freedom of religion in Islam:

Some group of Muslims believe in killing apostates because they follow a Hadith (Saying) from Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him regarding the apostates. While Islam was weak and still growing among Jews, Christians and Pagans, Muslims did not have the full and complete religion that they needed. Some Jews and Christians wanted to take advantage of such situation to destroy Islam. They had a plan to adopt Islam first and then desert it, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards.

Allah Almighty ordered the Muslims to kill the pagans who fought against the Muslims. The following Noble Verse talks about all of the enemies who fought the Muslims long and bloody battles:

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." The killing of the pagans who fought the Muslims during the time when Islam was not yet complete was essential.

Important Note: Noble Verse 2:191 above is not dedicated to the apostates as some Muslims use it to prove that the Noble Quran orders the killing of apostates. In fact, it doesn't even mention the apostates. It talks in general about slaying the pagans who declare wars on the Muslims. The pagans would obviously include the apostates who deserted Islam, but the Noble Verse certainly doesn't DIRECTLY order the killing of anyone who deserts Islam.

Allah Almighty promised that He will protect the Noble Quran from any corruption:

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). (The Noble Quran, 15:9)"

"Nay, this is a Glorious Quran, (inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved! (The Noble Quran, 85:21-22)"

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:3 ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah). This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....". So long as Islam was not organized, with its own community and its own laws, the unbelievers and the Hypocrites from the People of the Book and the Pagan Arabs had hoped to wean the believers from the new teaching. Now that hope is gone forever with the complete organization of Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."

Let us look at Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."

Let us look at Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"

Let us look at Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'"

Let us look at Noble Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" Allah Almighty doesn't like us to compel people into belief.

"No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. (The Noble Quran, 10:100)" Allah Almighty helps those whom He likes to be guided to His Straight Path. If anyone doesn't believe, or reverts back from Islam, it is then his loss and it is the Will of Allah Almighty.

"Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.' (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102)" Notice how Allah Almighty orders us to say "Wait" to those who reject Islam. This clearly says that we can't force anyone into Islam, or punish anyone for leaving Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verse 10:108 "Say: 'O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.'" Whoever believes benefits his soul and whoever doesn't, harms it, and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is not in charge of people to arrange their affairs. Only Allah Almighty is.

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)" Prophet Muhammad's duty was only to preach.

"Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better? he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgement? Do what ye will: Verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 41:40)" Here we clearly see Allah Almighty giving a freedom of choice for people to choose or refuse Islam.

"And those who take as protectors others besides Him - Allah doth watch over them; and thou art not the disposer of their affairs. (The Noble Quran, 42:6)" Again, Allah Almighty here told Prophet Muhammad that he has no authority over those who reject Islam.

"It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah Guides those whom He will and He Knows those who receive guidance. (The Noble Quran, 28:56)" Again, no authority to Prophet Muhammad over those who accept or reject Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256).

Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.



The following was sent to me from "Vipor Poison"; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

"I found another verse in the Quran that dealt with apostates. Noble Verse 4:137 "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."

Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. if a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.

I found many verses in the Quran that teach us NO PUNISHMENT for an apostate
BUT I found no verse that says the contrary.

Here is another verse about the freedom of expression in the Quran. many translators translate this wrongly and kill the meaning of the word making it a bogus and strange statement. Noble Verse 39:18 "Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding."

The Quran tells the Muslims to listen to every thing and follow only the best of what is said. it does not tell them to kill people if they say something that is not according to the cultural norm."



The following two sets of Noble Verses were sent to me by brother Rached Blili; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

Let us look at Noble Verses 109:1-6 "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine."

Let us look at Noble Verse 42:15 "Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: 'I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.'"

The Noble Quran in all of the above Noble Verses is crystal clear about providing freedom of religion and choice to all people, Muslims and non-Muslims.

dib, you have made it perfectly clear you are nothing but an ignorant liar who has nothing to stand upon but hateful and deceitful rhetoric.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally not full of shit, are you now.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to bother responding to everything because I actually work for a living and don't have time, but a good example of you taking what someone has said and twisting it is how Dib didn't say Islam flat out permits lying as a whole. He said that it permits lying for the sake of the religion effectively. Much like every other shitty thing you deny has anything to do with Islam showing us a few verses that contradict other verses doesn't change that UNDER CERTAIN OFTEN VERY VERY VERY VAGUE CIRCUMSTANCES (holy war, spreading/protecting the faith etc) horrible things are fully sanctioned in the Quran and Hadiths following.

It is fucking insane how much cognitive dissonance people like you display. You are a dishonest and shitty human being and you always have been. No wall of text is going to write scripture that is readable by everyone out of existance.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
I'm not going to bother responding to everything because I actually work for a living and don't have time, but a good example of you taking what someone has said and twisting it is how Dib didn't say Islam flat out permits lying as a whole. He said that it permits lying for the sake of the religion effectively. Much like every other shitty thing you deny has anything to do with Islam showing us a few verses that contradict other verses doesn't change that UNDER CERTAIN OFTEN VERY VERY VERY VAGUE CIRCUMSTANCES (holy war, spreading/protecting the faith etc) horrible things are fully sanctioned in the Quran and Hadiths following.

It is fucking insane how much cognitive dissonance people like you display. You are a dishonest and shitty human being and you always have been. No wall of text is going to write scripture that is readable by everyone out of existance.


I gave evidence the Quran doesn't permit lying whatsoever or for spreading of the faith at all.

If you read what I said you'd see I argued against everything you just said.

You are simply being a hate monger.

And Dib is simply attacking my credibility without substantiating any of his claims. He is plainly lying as I have demonstrated. And his motivation is simply hate, as is yours.

Islam does not permit lying in any way, especially not as you or dib stated; as I demonstrated. If you read what I said, at all, you'd conclude that.

I said quite plainly, Islam condemns lying -- all forms, and especially associating it with Islam. Lying is the sign of a hypocrite, and hypocrites are in the worst depths of hell. The Quran has numerous verses condemning lying.
The Muslim is forbidden from lying in all forms.


You claim to have scripture to support your claim but you give no evidence for any of your claims. I have.
You also claim contradictions, there are none. You can't give me one from your own reading. LOL

Nice cop out though, you obviously didn't read anything and it's not that you won't respond; it's that you obviously can't.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you actually did was cherry pick certain verses that contradict other verses as you do with everything. You can't have one standard for yourself and another for other people. It's a pointless argument to have anyway because you are a dishonest and shitty person and we all know it. There is absolutely no fucking chance that I am taking my time to respond to your post of 3,035 characters on CEF about Islam as if showing you each and every thing you're wrong about would ever in a million years convince you of anything. You're not worth even the time you've already been given.
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Last edited by konr on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
What you actually did was cherry pick certain verses that contradict other verses as you do with everything. You can't have one standard for yourself and another for other people. It's a pointless argument to have anyway because you are a dishonest and shitty person and we all know it.


No evidence for your first claim.
You also plainly don't know what you're talking about in the second sentence, else you would demonstrate as such. Islam stated all are equal. Of course people have different positions, this is necessary for and a product of freedom of self and community relations.

And your last is an ad hominem. Another cop out.

Dunked.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go back and read the bit I edited in, dumbass. This is not a debate.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
Go back and read the bit I edited in, dumbass. This is not a debate.

Yeah I know it's not a debate; you have nothing to offer, and empty claims. You're mad and are just spewing hate and insults. You give copout after copout, respond to nothing I say; because you're incapable of doing so.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greatsage wrote:
konr wrote:
Go back and read the bit I edited in, dumbass. This is not a debate.

Yeah I know it's not a debate; you have nothing to offer, and empty claims. You're mad and are just spewing hate and insults. You give copout after copout, respond to nothing I say; because you're incapable of doing so.
Correct
Incorrect

I've already told you that I don't care to spend that much of my time trying to respond to you because everyone knows you're full of shit anyway and you're never in a million years going to change your mind because of that. Think whatever you want buddy, you're a dick head Smile That's an ad hominem!!!!

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