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Does anyone here actually think socialism would work?
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Brolock
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antagonist wrote:
Adnihil wrote:
Nah

If you buy a piece of fabric for 5 dollars and turn it into a shirt that you can sell for 10 dollars, then your work is worth 5 dollars. If you have someone else turn it into a shirt for you, then his work is worth 5 dollars, because without his work you'd still just have fabric worth nothing more than the price you bought it for.
However this doesn't mean that he deserves 5 dollars for his work because he's not the one buying the fabric, selling the shirt, or taking the risks. His work is worth 5 dollars, but it is fair to pay him less than 5 dollars or else you would be helping him without getting anything in return. However it is also not fair to pay him 5 cents for his work while his work is the main source of your income.


yo ur explanation of how efforts of a business works is totally pat and contrived lmao. that is not how labor wages are determined buddy. its composed of several different factors, more recently complicated due to the implication of governmental regulation, lobbying, unions, etc. which can be good or bad.

your whole argument is filled with lots of holes and falls apart very quickly because your understanding of how capitalism works, your understanding of how a business works, of how the economy works, of how capital flows, of how markets structure functions, etc etc. is through your naive perception and not legitimate facts. You also seem to over simplify and stipulate your explanation in a fashion that doesn't make it universally accepted but tailored to your point of view and to your argument which is already fallacious.

You are not even qualified to be part of this discussion. Everything that youve said is totally flawed and fallacious due to the reasons Ive mentioned in my previous posts which you have dismissed because you refuse to accept facts that doesn't fit your paradigm.
fucking savage bro
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konr
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main source for his income is himself, because he is doing 99% of the work and because he's done that work he is now able to pay other people that will take up the contract of the job he's offering to do a more menial task that he likely used to have to do himself. Like Antagonist said your understanding of how this shit works is fucking non-existent and your analogies are terrible and only serve to try to obfuscate.
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Adnihil
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'll admit that I don't know a whole lot about economics, but you say my argument falls apart because of this. What do you actually​ think my argument is?
Obviously the over simplified example I gave to explain to konr how I see what an employee deserves compared to what his labor is worth isn't how I believe the entire world works.
Again you seem to see things I didn't write. You say 'that's not how wages are determined', while I never said anything about that. You say everything I've said it's flawed due to reasons you've stated in your previous posts, but all you've done is posted things that just weren't counter-arguments, even saying things that actually supported my arguments, and you just didn't reply to the things I guess you couldn't find an answer to.

This might be due to English not being my first language but it's starting to get annoying having to keep explaining myself for stuff I didn't write or didn't imply.
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Brolock
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: This post has 1 review(s) Reply with quote

if you dont believe thats how the world works then why the fuck did you write it? what was your point with an example that you are now saying you know is oversimplified and is easy to be countered exampled? if you dont want to be misconstrued then explicitly type what the fuck your point is and then give your example, then you cannot complain when being countered.
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Rin
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you buy a piece of fabric for 5 dollars and turn it into a shirt that you can sell for 10 dollars, then your work is worth 5 dollars. If you have someone else turn it into a shirt for you, then his work is worth 5 dollars, because without his work you'd still just have fabric worth nothing more than the price you bought it for.

Costs across people/firms are not equal (and costs do not end at input costs), that's probably the easiest example as to why this is untrue. Also, production at different scales changes the actual cost structure as well. Not the only reason, but you know simple example.

Regarding price/worth, that really is hard to actually say. If you value that shirt at 10 then sure. But what If I value the same shirt at 15. Value is a subjective matter and by extension input prices when you actually think about it

Quote:
However this doesn't mean that he deserves 5 dollars for his work because he's not the one buying the fabric, selling the shirt, or taking the risks. His work is worth 5 dollars, but it is fair to pay him less than 5 dollars or else you would be helping him without getting anything in return.

Aside from the normative claim that he doesn't deserve it/fairness, he does bear risks and costs to him that you have not fully internalized. He does bear the risk of making the shirt and other things such as opportunity costs...etc... (and again costs are not uniform across humanity)


Quote:
However it is also not fair to pay him 5 cents for his work while his work is the main source of your income.


Normative claim. If people only value the shirt at $5.05 then they're not gonna pay more. This is also assuming he literally has no other costs aside from material (which is an untrue assumption he is going to be at a loss if he only makes .05 and has costs that exceed .05, this guy would be better off leaving the market and not making the shirt. He should find something else to make because he is going to die slowly this way).



Shrooms wrote:
konr wrote:
If it can work, why has it failed for the same reasons every single time it's been tried? As the guy I quoted said, there is a lack of competition, lack of incentives, human error, trade imbalances, inefficient domestic industries, etc. at play. Don't pretend that it worked all good and if it weren't for pesky outside interference it would have continued because that's absolute horse shit. There should be some socialist elements for people that genuinely need help and have no other options, but to argue that socialism as a whole can work you're gonna have to show me an example of it working without the same huge downsides happening that always do

EDIT:
After looking into it a little bit more to refresh my mind on it, you realise that Yugoslavia effectively ran off of getting in massive foreign debt right?


1. No outside influence affected Yugoslavia.
2. Once the leader died, Yugoslavia ran massive debt.
3. Grandparents lived in Yugoslavia and was fine until leader died.

Socialism works and it didn't fail for the same reasons in Yugoslavia.

Konr is just an uneducated idiot papauv.

I can't watch a youtube video with a straight face from someone who didn't live there and telling me it didn't work. (Presenter was 1 years old when alive)

It worked 100% and is currently working in Canada in some aspects


Socialism works to the degree that you have a utopian style characteristic of mankind. Otherwise it doesnt.
On the surface it can look as though it works in a short term horizon. This is true and Karl Marx agrees that without the higher level man that such a utopian thing such as communism can exist (The idea of socialism is a stepping stone for communism in its truest sense).
You cannot say that massive debt was due to the death of a leader. That debt was being built up regardless, it's just when power was shifted that debt was pushed to the forefront earlier than expected.

Socialism runs on assumptions that cannot seemingly be fulfilled with current man in its most existential sense at the moment. Theoretically, it is fine given its assumptions are stable. The problems arise when you cannot achieve the perfect state of man before the implementation of socialism. Hence why capitalism is the better option, we do not need the perfect assumptions of socialism to still get a working society.

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konr
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shrooms wrote:
konr wrote:
If it can work, why has it failed for the same reasons every single time it's been tried? As the guy I quoted said, there is a lack of competition, lack of incentives, human error, trade imbalances, inefficient domestic industries, etc. at play. Don't pretend that it worked all good and if it weren't for pesky outside interference it would have continued because that's absolute horse shit. There should be some socialist elements for people that genuinely need help and have no other options, but to argue that socialism as a whole can work you're gonna have to show me an example of it working without the same huge downsides happening that always do

EDIT:
After looking into it a little bit more to refresh my mind on it, you realise that Yugoslavia effectively ran off of getting in massive foreign debt right?


1. No outside influence affected Yugoslavia.
2. Once the leader died, Yugoslavia ran massive debt.
3. Grandparents lived in Yugoslavia and was fine until leader died.

Socialism works and it didn't fail for the same reasons in Yugoslavia.

Konr is just an uneducated idiot papauv.

I can't watch a youtube video with a straight face from someone who didn't live there and telling me it didn't work. (Presenter was 1 years old when alive)

It worked 100% and is currently working in Canada in some aspects
Pretty much what Rin said. If you are going to argue that the debt wasn't there until the leader died and then after that the debt was made in its' entirety you're either lying or an uneducated idiot. Not only that but even if that were the case, can you really say a system works (especially better than proper non-crony capitalism) if all it takes to topple it is having one leader die? Get a grip you idealistic fucknut.

Sorry did you live there? Then how are you arguing about it? If you need to live there at the time of it yourself to talk about it then shut the fuck up yourself you enormous hypocrite. I'd rather read things for myself about it, speak to people that lived there at the time and had parents there too that fully disagree with you rather than hear that some moron's grandparents thought it was fine as if they saw everything underneath it and have ever bothered researching to look for any of the downsides of what they saw as the best thing ever.

Just because you lived there and just because you're old that doesn't make you correct about anything you say. The people that I agree with have given me actual research and data to back up what they say, while people like you have just said DURRRRR U DIDNT LIVE THURR IT WAS DA BEST!!!

Fucking idiot.

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Adnihil
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brolock wrote:
if you dont believe thats how the world works then why the fuck did you write it? what was your point with an example that you are now saying you know is oversimplified and is easy to be countered exampled? if you dont want to be misconstrued then explicitly type what the fuck your point is and then give your example, then you cannot complain when being countered.
It didn't have anything to do with the rest of the conversation. Konr said I was contradicting myself because he assumed I see the worth of an employee's work as equal to what he deserves, even though I never said I did. I write a quick simple example to explain him how I see it and why. Then Antagonist comes out taking it out of context, saying stuff I know/agree with in a way that makes it look like I said the opposite, supposedly discrediting everything I've said so far even though this has nothing to do with it.

Fuck man, if this was a school assignment you'd all get zeros for just trying to attack the opposition any way you can without actually saying anything relevant to the argument. Even claiming I 'typed incorrectly' even though it's right there, black on white, you can go read it again if you want. But this is the internet, should have figured. I expect the next response to be 'It's not black on white, the background color of this forum is grey, black on grey doesn't make sense, thus everything you've said so far is wrong.'
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konr
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah for sure dude we'd all get zeros for reading what you said instead of what you didn't say. Like you say it's probably English being your second language, because it's really straight forward. Say what you mean, and if you are using an analogy like you did but you don't even think the example is accurate why should we give a shit about anything you say on the subject we're talking about? You're offering absolutely nothing to the discussion and then getting annoyed at us for reading it correctly.
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Rin
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, I thought I read and replied correctly...
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Brolock
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adnihil wrote:
Brolock wrote:
if you dont believe thats how the world works then why the fuck did you write it? what was your point with an example that you are now saying you know is oversimplified and is easy to be countered exampled? if you dont want to be misconstrued then explicitly type what the fuck your point is and then give your example, then you cannot complain when being countered.
It didn't have anything to do with the rest of the conversation. Konr said I was contradicting myself because he assumed I see the worth of an employee's work as equal to what he deserves, even though I never said I did. I write a quick simple example to explain him how I see it and why. Then Antagonist comes out taking it out of context, saying stuff I know/agree with in a way that makes it look like I said the opposite, supposedly discrediting everything I've said so far even though this has nothing to do with it.

Fuck man, if this was a school assignment you'd all get zeros for just trying to attack the opposition any way you can without actually saying anything relevant to the argument. Even claiming I 'typed incorrectly' even though it's right there, black on white, you can go read it again if you want. But this is the internet, should have figured. I expect the next response to be 'It's not black on white, the background color of this forum is grey, black on grey doesn't make sense, thus everything you've said so far is wrong.'
If it has nothing to do with the conversation, don't fucking write it.

You literally just said in your previous post that it was "an oversimplification and obviously isn't how you think the world works" YET right now you claim that "to explain him how I see it and why".

and yet here is ANOTHER contradiction because 1) you just claimed it has nothing to do with the conversation and then you said 2) that you are using the example to show him what you believe, 1 implies no meaning, 2 implies meaning, hence the contradiction.

you write like all the people in my shitty english and philosophy classes, you can't get your point across, you don't know what you're trying to say, and you're writing tons of fluff and bullshit when you should just simply state explicitly what you mean. ive never gotten a bad grade on a school writing assignment in my life, you wanna know why? because teachers are looking for you to state, sentence by sentence, what the fuck your point is what you're trying to do, no one knows what the fuck you're thinking, and if you are implying anything in subtext, then yes it can be taken the wrong way, hence you should just explicitly state what you want to say. people will think youre some god like writer if in one sentence you can simply state your point, and then in the next ones write supporting information for your point. its that simple

even if you think youre replying directly to someones point, you may actually be reading it the wrong way, so you should also state what point youre replying to, that way if you are wrong in interpreting the person, it wont matter as much because youre replying to what you think a specific point is, and then if the person comes back and says thats not what they meant then you take what they are saying again and use that.
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paupav
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
If it can work, why has it failed for the same reasons every single time it's been tried? As the guy I quoted said, there is a lack of competition, lack of incentives, human error, trade imbalances, inefficient domestic industries, etc. at play. Don't pretend that it worked all good and if it weren't for pesky outside interference it would have continued because that's absolute horse shit. There should be some socialist elements for people that genuinely need help and have no other options, but to argue that socialism as a whole can work you're gonna have to show me an example of it working without the same huge downsides happening that always do.


Link


Link


EDIT:
After looking into it a little bit more to refresh my mind on it, you realise that Yugoslavia effectively ran off of getting in massive foreign debt right?

Well North Korea is claiming to be socialist, and it still didn't broke apart. There is one example.
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konr
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paupav wrote:
konr wrote:
If it can work, why has it failed for the same reasons every single time it's been tried? As the guy I quoted said, there is a lack of competition, lack of incentives, human error, trade imbalances, inefficient domestic industries, etc. at play. Don't pretend that it worked all good and if it weren't for pesky outside interference it would have continued because that's absolute horse shit. There should be some socialist elements for people that genuinely need help and have no other options, but to argue that socialism as a whole can work you're gonna have to show me an example of it working without the same huge downsides happening that always do.


Link


Link


EDIT:
After looking into it a little bit more to refresh my mind on it, you realise that Yugoslavia effectively ran off of getting in massive foreign debt right?

Well North Korea is claiming to be socialist, and it still didn't broke apart. There is one example.
Are you implying that North Korea "works" for its' people..?
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paupav
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you implying that it doesn't work?
Have you ever watched korrean star tv? They are doing fine.
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Brolock
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paupav wrote:
are you implying that it doesn't work?
Have you ever watched korrean star tv? They are doing fine.
??????????????????????????????
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paupav
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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