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Does anyone here actually think socialism would work?
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Antagonist
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adnihil wrote:


Quote:
No, in a capitalist economy, a person becomes rich from profits. There are no proven evidence that links working class generating profits for the rich.

what
Companies make profit by paying their employees much less of what their labor is worth. Thus the working class generates profit for the rich. If this wasn't the case, employees would earn as much money as their boss, and their bosses wouldn't make profit, and it wouldn't be capitalism.




Lol


Also,

Paying less of what their labor is worth is illegal. There are actually analysts in companies that figure out how much people should be paid for their work. if what you say is true, you'd see lawyers walking around having trouble pulling their sagged pants up with all dat cash from dat lawsuit money

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Adnihil
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alt wrote:
Are you suggesting that if a person works their asses off to develop a company that can run autonomously, that they aren't entitled to the fruits of that labor?

No. You're acting like taxes take up the majority of your paycheck.
Are you suggesting that if a person works their asses off to work for a company, it's normal that they still have trouble making ends meet?

Quote:
Categorically false. Companies make profit by charging their clients what they believe their service is worth. Companies pay their employees based upon what they believe their labor is worth. Ultimately that payment is based upon voluntary contract between the employer and the employee. If someone is being abused in this situation then they have every legal right to cancel the contract they voluntarily entered into. If a person believes their labor is worth more than they are being compensated, then they should take that up with their employer, not the state.

It's not voluntary though, don't you see the fault in your reasoning? You basically don't have any say about how much you earn because in this system your boss can just find someone else who will work for the amount that he decides, because we all need money to survive. People working low wage jobs are basically slaves.

Quote:
Also, being the CEO of an organization is very difficult work. Tremendous responsibility rests on your shoulders and being paid more than your workers is only fair. My father owns his own mechanic shop and he is barely able to make ends meet. He supports three families off of that one shop and he barely takes home enough money to pay for his own family. What you and your ilk suggest would completely destroy his business by making the overhead far too expensive for his meager profits to sustain. That stress alone is enough to make most people give up, yet he has the stones required to handle it. Your arguments assume that these people are only exploiters that are abusing poor working families, but you types consistently forget that the CEOs themselves are working people too.

Hey, I'm not arguing this. I never said that a boss should make the same as their employees. Stop seeing things I didn't write.

Quote:
I come from a low income family that only had a house or land thanks to my parents' parents' parents. We survived off of less than $20,000 a year with 5 people in the household. That's a median income of $4,000 a year per person. I managed to make it through college and now I'll never have to worry about money again. 2 year universities and trade schools have amazing programs for people in poor situations, and there's always work to be found if a person is willing to change locations.
That's your idea of what poverty is? Owning a house and land?
Congrats on getting through college though.

It seems to me like all of these things you're saying could actually be solved by a basic income and free non-private education and healthcare. Your family wouldn't have (had) financial issues, you would have been able to go to a college of your liking (or if you didn't, chosen a path of what you wanted to do rather than what paid best), and doctors wouldn't try to sell you brands. People shouldn't be forced to change locations to work a job they don't like just to survive. Social security works in both ways, man. If you'd ever get hospitalized for a week you wouldn't lose half of your yearly income on medical bills. For some people living from paycheck to paycheck, getting ill and not being able to work is like a death sentence. So they go to work ill, become even more ill, don't work at their full capacities, and infect others. This shouldn't be a reality.
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Antagonist
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's an odd correlation that people who hate capitalism are typically losers who couldn't make the cut in a competitive world
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No. You're acting like taxes take up the majority of your paycheck.
Are you suggesting that if a person works their asses off to work for a company, it's normal that they still have trouble making ends meet?

That depends on the value of the job they are filling. I'm sorry, but working full time at McDonald's just isn't worth the same as working full time as a risk assessment analyst for a fortune 500 company. If you have a job where you can be easily replaced, then you aren't working a very valuable job. That's how value is determined: supply and demand.

Quote:
It's not voluntary though, don't you see the fault in your reasoning? You basically don't have any say about how much you earn because in this system your boss can just find someone else who will work for the amount that he decides, because we all need money to survive. People working low wage jobs are basically slaves.

It is literally voluntary. There is no one holding a gun to your head telling you to get a job, and many people decide that they just won't work. There are entire communities based around not working in corporate America. They farm their own food, build their own houses, and otherwise just sustain themselves without outside influence. You do not /have/ to work, and any claim that you do is purely fallacious.

Quote:
Hey, I'm not arguing this. I never said that a boss should make the same as their employees. Stop seeing things I didn't write.

Quote:
Companies make profit by paying their employees much less of what their labor is worth. Thus the working class generates profit for the rich. If this wasn't the case, employees would earn as much money as their boss


Quote:
That's your idea of what poverty is? Owning a house and land?

According to the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, the poverty threshold for a family of 5 is $28,780. My family made approximately $19,500 last year. So yes, by the definition of poverty that the US uses, we are impoverished.

As for the rest of your post, I would have refused that money to begin with. I didn't earn that money and I damn sure wouldn't have wanted to be taking from others for something that I could make myself. If I didn't work for my education then I wouldn't have deserved it. The same applies to all. I understand that medical issues are tough, and sometimes people can get really fucked over, but at the end of the day it is their responsibility to deal with the burdens of life. They should look to their families and friends first, before assuming entitlement towards the earnings of their countrymen.
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Adnihil
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hey, I'm not arguing this. I never said that a boss should make the same as their employees. Stop seeing things I didn't write.

Quote:
Companies make profit by paying their employees much less of what their labor is worth. Thus the working class generates profit for the rich. If this wasn't the case, employees would earn as much money as their boss

Two different sentences. The other guy wrote that employees don't generate profit for their employer, so I said that was false because if it were true employees would make as much as their employer. I never said employees should earn as much as their employer.

I completely agree with you that 'working full time at McDonald's just isn't worth the same as working full time as a risk assessment analyst for a fortune 500 company'. I don't believe that they should make the same amount of money, I feel like you keep getting the wrong idea of what I'm saying here.
I just believe that everyone should be earning enough to live a decent life and should get the opportunity to go to school to get a shot at a better job and a better life. And let's face it, a lot of jobs are way underpaid while they are way harder than some much better paying jobs.

To farm food and build a house you need land and money to begin with though.

Also shouldn't you add up what you save on rent by owning a house to your yearly income to get a correct estimate?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antagonist wrote:
It's an odd correlation that people who hate capitalism are typically losers who couldn't make the cut in a competitive world
Also, everyone who wants socialism doesn't want to be the one working in the fields, but think that someone else should do it just because.
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konr
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:05 pm    Post subject: This post has 1 review(s) Reply with quote

Adnihil wrote:
Hey, I'm not arguing this. I never said that a boss should make the same as their employees. Stop seeing things I didn't write.


Um

Adnihil wrote:
Companies make profit by paying their employees much less of what their labor is worth. Thus the working class generates profit for the rich. If this wasn't the case, employees would earn as much money as their boss, and their bosses wouldn't make profit, and it wouldn't be capitalism.

Here you imply that if the boss paid employees what their wage was worth they'd make the same amount of money as the boss. This implies that their work is worth the same amount as the boss, so you kind of did say that.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idk, but my parents lived in socialist country (Yugoslavia) which worked up until 1990 when Tito died and they agree that it worked fine. Everyone went on holiday at least once a year.

Prices were almost constant, so when there was shortage of some products everyone was suffering equally.
In capitalism prices go higher, rich people are the only ones who can afford them and it seems like there is enough everything for everyone, while there isn't.

The first thing that was bad was that religious people weren't allowed in politics and anyone talking in nationalist way was imprisoned. Second thig that was bad is that individualism wasn't appreciated, so when someone did some breakthrough he couldn't patent it.

By some research Croatia achieved pre-war quality of life in 2008, which I guess is okay quality of life.

By numbers, GDP seems higher, but wealth distribution is different.

I don't understand what do you mean by "does anyone actually believes that socialism works?". I'm surrounded with many people that believe that it worked fine, and that's from the point of view of people who lived in socialist country.

I believe that with right people you could organise fiscal policy as policy without taxes, but where you give money to the country's budget if you believe that you have too much of it, and you take money from country's budget if you don't have enough of it.
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paupav wrote:
Idk, but my parents lived in socialist country (Yugoslavia) which worked up until 1990 when Tito died and they agree that it worked fine. Everyone went on holiday at least once a year.

Prices were almost constant, so when there was shortage of some products everyone was suffering equally.
In capitalism prices go higher, rich people are the only ones who can afford them and it seems like there is enough everything for everyone, while there isn't.

The first thing that was bad was that religious people weren't allowed in politics and anyone talking in nationalist way was imprisoned. Second thig that was bad is that individualism wasn't appreciated, so when someone did some breakthrough he couldn't patent it.

By some research Croatia achieved pre-war quality of life in 2008, which I guess is okay quality of life.

By numbers, GDP seems higher, but wealth distribution is different.

I don't understand what do you mean by "does anyone actually believes that socialism works?". I'm surrounded with many people that believe that it worked fine, and that's from the point of view of people who lived in socialist country.

I believe that with right people you could organise fiscal policy as policy without taxes, but where you give money to the country's budget if you believe that you have too much of it, and you take money from country's budget if you don't have enough of it.
Some guy on the internet in regards to Yugoslavia:
Quote:
His model was more successful than other Communist models because it was more open to foreign trade, influence, and was generally a touch more laissez-faire. It was however, still socialist in nature and was victim to the same type of early miraculous advances with stagnation and almost complete collapse in the later period.
If you read about any communist reform it is amazing how successful the model was in the 50's and 60's. Many Eastern European countries were thrust into modernity from quasi-feudalism in less than 10 years.
Eventually though, it was not sustainable for all the reasons we know communism not to be sustainable (lack of competition, lack of incentives, human error, trade imbalances, inefficient domestic industries, etc.)

If it "worked fine" it would still be the same.

Also, "if you believe you have too much"..? Who the fuck would work their ass off and earn a lot of money and then think "I don't deserve this money, I am going to just give it away!"..? Not only that, but why should they? They earned it, it is theirs.

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paupav
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
paupav wrote:
Idk, but my parents lived in socialist country (Yugoslavia) which worked up until 1990 when Tito died and they agree that it worked fine. Everyone went on holiday at least once a year.

Prices were almost constant, so when there was shortage of some products everyone was suffering equally.
In capitalism prices go higher, rich people are the only ones who can afford them and it seems like there is enough everything for everyone, while there isn't.

The first thing that was bad was that religious people weren't allowed in politics and anyone talking in nationalist way was imprisoned. Second thig that was bad is that individualism wasn't appreciated, so when someone did some breakthrough he couldn't patent it.

By some research Croatia achieved pre-war quality of life in 2008, which I guess is okay quality of life.

By numbers, GDP seems higher, but wealth distribution is different.

I don't understand what do you mean by "does anyone actually believes that socialism works?". I'm surrounded with many people that believe that it worked fine, and that's from the point of view of people who lived in socialist country.

I believe that with right people you could organise fiscal policy as policy without taxes, but where you give money to the country's budget if you believe that you have too much of it, and you take money from country's budget if you don't have enough of it.
Some guy on the internet in regards to Yugoslavia:
Quote:
His model was more successful than other Communist models because it was more open to foreign trade, influence, and was generally a touch more laissez-faire. It was however, still socialist in nature and was victim to the same type of early miraculous advances with stagnation and almost complete collapse in the later period.
If you read about any communist reform it is amazing how successful the model was in the 50's and 60's. Many Eastern European countries were thrust into modernity from quasi-feudalism in less than 10 years.
Eventually though, it was not sustainable for all the reasons we know communism not to be sustainable (lack of competition, lack of incentives, human error, trade imbalances, inefficient domestic industries, etc.)

If it "worked fine" it would still be the same.

Also, "if you believe you have too much"..? Who the fuck would work their ass off and earn a lot of money and then think "I don't deserve this money, I am going to just give it away!"..? Not only that, but why should they? They earned it, it is theirs.

It failed because nationalism appeared and Croats, Slovenians, Bosnians, Serbians... all wanted their own country. Leader died. It would be hard to keep country consisted of three countries: Mexico, US and Canada together, wouldn't it?

Sure, huge inflation and economical crysis played their part. Mainly because middle east, main trading partners got their countries destabilised. But it had very little influence.

I'm not saying that socialism is good. I'm just saying that it can work.
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konr
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it can work, why has it failed for the same reasons every single time it's been tried? As the guy I quoted said, there is a lack of competition, lack of incentives, human error, trade imbalances, inefficient domestic industries, etc. at play. Don't pretend that it worked all good and if it weren't for pesky outside interference it would have continued because that's absolute horse shit. There should be some socialist elements for people that genuinely need help and have no other options, but to argue that socialism as a whole can work you're gonna have to show me an example of it working without the same huge downsides happening that always do.


Link


Link


EDIT:
After looking into it a little bit more to refresh my mind on it, you realise that Yugoslavia effectively ran off of getting in massive foreign debt right?

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konr wrote:
Adnihil wrote:
Hey, I'm not arguing this. I never said that a boss should make the same as their employees. Stop seeing things I didn't write.


Um

Adnihil wrote:
Companies make profit by paying their employees much less of what their labor is worth. Thus the working class generates profit for the rich. If this wasn't the case, employees would earn as much money as their boss, and their bosses wouldn't make profit, and it wouldn't be capitalism.

Here you imply that if the boss paid employees what their wage was worth they'd make the same amount of money as the boss. This implies that their work is worth the same amount as the boss, so you kind of did say that.
Except that I didn't?
I could say that their wage is worth a million times the amount of their boss's, and I still wouldn't be saying that they should earn as much as their boss. Please refrain from posting if you can not read.
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adnihil wrote:
konr wrote:
Adnihil wrote:
Hey, I'm not arguing this. I never said that a boss should make the same as their employees. Stop seeing things I didn't write.


Um

Adnihil wrote:
Companies make profit by paying their employees much less of what their labor is worth. Thus the working class generates profit for the rich. If this wasn't the case, employees would earn as much money as their boss, and their bosses wouldn't make profit, and it wouldn't be capitalism.

Here you imply that if the boss paid employees what their wage was worth they'd make the same amount of money as the boss. This implies that their work is worth the same amount as the boss, so you kind of did say that.
Except that I didn't?
I could say that their wage is worth a million times the amount of their boss's, and I still wouldn't be saying that they should earn as much as their boss. Please refrain from posting if you can not read.
You'd be saying that they deserve that much, which (unless you don't actually base your opinions on what people should have on your beliefs for what people deserve) is the same thing. Please refrain from posting if you can't speak English. If you didn't mean that, then you typed incorrectly.
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah

If you buy a piece of fabric for 5 dollars and turn it into a shirt that you can sell for 10 dollars, then your work is worth 5 dollars. If you have someone else turn it into a shirt for you, then his work is worth 5 dollars, because without his work you'd still just have fabric worth nothing more than the price you bought it for.
However this doesn't mean that he deserves 5 dollars for his work because he's not the one buying the fabric, selling the shirt, or taking the risks. His work is worth 5 dollars, but it is fair to pay him less than 5 dollars or else you would be helping him without getting anything in return. However it is also not fair to pay him 5 cents for his work while his work is the main source of your income.
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adnihil wrote:
Nah

If you buy a piece of fabric for 5 dollars and turn it into a shirt that you can sell for 10 dollars, then your work is worth 5 dollars. If you have someone else turn it into a shirt for you, then his work is worth 5 dollars, because without his work you'd still just have fabric worth nothing more than the price you bought it for.
However this doesn't mean that he deserves 5 dollars for his work because he's not the one buying the fabric, selling the shirt, or taking the risks. His work is worth 5 dollars, but it is fair to pay him less than 5 dollars or else you would be helping him without getting anything in return. However it is also not fair to pay him 5 cents for his work while his work is the main source of your income.


yo ur explanation of how efforts of a business works is totally pat and contrived lmao. that is not how labor wages are determined buddy. its composed of several different factors, more recently complicated due to the implication of governmental regulation, lobbying, unions, etc. which can be good or bad.

your whole argument is filled with lots of holes and falls apart very quickly because your understanding of how capitalism works, your understanding of how a business works, of how the economy works, of how capital flows, of how markets structure functions, etc etc. is through your naive perception and not legitimate facts. You also seem to over simplify and stipulate your explanation in a fashion that doesn't make it universally accepted but tailored to your point of view and to your argument which is already fallacious.

You are not even qualified to be part of this discussion. Everything that youve said is totally flawed and fallacious due to the reasons Ive mentioned in my previous posts which you have dismissed because you refuse to accept facts that doesn't fit your paradigm.

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