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Alt How do I cheat? Reputation: 2
Joined: 19 Jan 2017 Posts: 4
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Adnihil wrote: | That's not very relevant though, is it? Just because it was worse before, or because it could be worse, doesn't mean it's good now. |
Or course it's relevant, it's called context. Without context you have no idea how or why something is the way it is. Capitalism is so widespread because of it's extreme success. Socialism has been tried many times, and it has failed every single time. Marxist thought in general has been shown to illicit destruction in some aspect of society when applied in any way.
fee org/articles/mass-protest-against-socialism-in-venezuela-minute-by-minute/
Look at this. Venezuela is burning because of socialism and the people are rising up against their overlords. How long until the same people that cry out against the injustices of Capitalism and say that socialism is the way turn against Venezuela and say it was never "true socialism"? If socialism is the "better way", then why are 6 million people rising against it at this very moment? Yeah, if a better system winds up being developed we should swap over to it, if it is truly better. Is socialism the "better option"? Or course not.
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1929394839292057839194958 Grandmaster Cheater Supreme Reputation: 130
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 1508
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Alt wrote: | Adnihil wrote: | That's not very relevant though, is it? Just because it was worse before, or because it could be worse, doesn't mean it's good now. |
Or course it's relevant, it's called context. Without context you have no idea how or why something is the way it is. Capitalism is so widespread because of it's extreme success. Socialism has been tried many times, and it has failed every single time. Marxist thought in general has been shown to illicit destruction in some aspect of society when applied in any way.
fee org/articles/mass-protest-against-socialism-in-venezuela-minute-by-minute/
Look at this. Venezuela is burning because of socialism and the people are rising up against their overlords. How long until the same people that cry out against the injustices of Capitalism and say that socialism is the way turn against Venezuela and say it was never "true socialism"? If socialism is the "better way", then why are 6 million people rising against it at this very moment? Yeah, if a better system winds up being developed we should swap over to it, if it is truly better. Is socialism the "better option"? Or course not. | This guy speaks what I think and is a pretty cool guy eh.
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clash of clans hacks Master Cheater Reputation: 63
Joined: 18 Jul 2007 Posts: 368 Location: Remember when we all used to put funny lines here?
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Didn't say socialism is the way to go, I said I didn't believe capitalism works. Giving examples of systems that are worse and pointing out the positive things capitalism did doesn't invalidate what I said.
It may be the best system (on a large scale) up until now, but it's still far from the best system there could be. And with time and technological advancements, and the environment suffering, it's getting worse and worse.
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1929394839292057839194958 Grandmaster Cheater Supreme Reputation: 130
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 1508
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Adnihil wrote: | Didn't say socialism is the way to go, I said I didn't believe capitalism works. Giving examples of systems that are worse and pointing out the positive things capitalism did doesn't invalidate what I said.
It may be the best system (on a large scale) up until now, but it's still far from the best system there could be. And with time and technological advancements, and the environment suffering, it's getting worse and worse. | You're in a thread about whether socialism could work (it couldn't) saying that capitalism caused everything wrong with the world (exaggeration) and then you're saying it doesn't invalidate anything you say to say when he says capitalism actually fixed stuff in the first place that you seem to be arguing it made worse later on. You're also offering nothing in the way of a real solution, you're just saying "capitalism isn't perfect" in this thread of all threads. Unless you're arguing for socialism idk what you expect to hear from people.
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clash of clans hacks Master Cheater Reputation: 63
Joined: 18 Jul 2007 Posts: 368 Location: Remember when we all used to put funny lines here?
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Not my fault you guys see things I didn't write.
If I say "3 is a low number", and someone else says "Are you crazy, there's 1 and 2. 3 also won the space race", that doesn't make 3 a high number, so it's irrelevant.
Maybe capitalism worked well for a while but it's obviously not working anymore and with the technological advancements, automation, and increasing population, unemployment and poverty are on the rise. Higher poverty equals lower education, lower health, more depression, debt, criminality, and more poverty.
I don't have one single solution, but to me an ideal system would be a system where education, healthcare, and public transport would be free. Ideally housing and essentials would be free too (there's more than enough empty houses and food and other resources going to waste in the name of profit) but that's tricky so instead there could be an unconditional basic income so nobody has to go without a house or essentials, and can afford some luxuries without having to work but still live within his/her means.
The prices of products should be regulated based on the environmental impact of the product, its production, and the company that produced it. Or just heavily tax companies based on their environmental impact.
Also all drugs should be legal, regulated, and sold in smartshops operated by the state.
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HitIer How do I cheat? Reputation: 22
Joined: 09 Feb 2013 Posts: 0 Location: Location Location Location
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Konr is retarded
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t328163 wrote: | Your username derives from the fact that this site cannot format special characters lol. |
t328163 wrote: |
lmfao, on reddit i'd get banned |
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cokefag Master Cheater Reputation: 51
Joined: 15 Nov 2007 Posts: 488
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Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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if you think socialism can work in an imperfect world, you're beyond saving
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1929394839292057839194958 Grandmaster Cheater Supreme Reputation: 130
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 1508
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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The thing that we see that you didn't write is the context of this thread attached to the post. Please get a grip on that and understand if you don't mean something to come across some way, you better specify in the first place.
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Antagonist Cheater Reputation: 29
Joined: 24 Nov 2009 Posts: 48 Location: California
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Adnihil wrote: | Not my fault you guys see things I didn't write.
If I say "3 is a low number", and someone else says "Are you crazy, there's 1 and 2. 3 also won the space race", that doesn't make 3 a high number, so it's irrelevant.
Maybe capitalism worked well for a while but it's obviously not working anymore and with the technological advancements, automation, and increasing population, unemployment and poverty are on the rise. Higher poverty equals lower education, lower health, more depression, debt, criminality, and more poverty.
I don't have one single solution, but to me an ideal system would be a system where education, healthcare, and public transport would be free. Ideally housing and essentials would be free too (there's more than enough empty houses and food and other resources going to waste in the name of profit) but that's tricky so instead there could be an unconditional basic income so nobody has to go without a house or essentials, and can afford some luxuries without having to work but still live within his/her means.
The prices of products should be regulated based on the environmental impact of the product, its production, and the company that produced it. Or just heavily tax companies based on their environmental impact.
Also all drugs should be legal, regulated, and sold in smartshops operated by the state. |
terrible use of tax payers money. large array of people who do not benefit from those things. also not government job to pay for you to live.
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tough guy talix wrote: | i've had it with your shit. fuck outta here |
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clash of clans hacks Master Cheater Reputation: 63
Joined: 18 Jul 2007 Posts: 368 Location: Remember when we all used to put funny lines here?
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Antagonist wrote: | Adnihil wrote: | to me an ideal system would be a system where education, healthcare, and public transport would be free. Ideally housing and essentials would be free too (there's more than enough empty houses and food and other resources going to waste in the name of profit) but that's tricky so instead there could be an unconditional basic income so nobody has to go without a house or essentials, and can afford some luxuries without having to work but still live within his/her means. |
terrible use of tax payers money. large array of people who do not benefit from those things. also not government job to pay for you to live. |
The people who don't 'benefit' from those things are the people who can afford it and still have more than enough money to spare. The point is to help out the people who can not afford these things.
I see where you're coming from with that it's not the governments job to fund your life but it is the governments job to ensure that its society is doing well, and poverty hurts everyone.
In a capitalist state, the working class generates profit for the rich and in turn gets paid a tiny fraction of what its labor is worth. But these jobs are being taken over by machines, and in a world where the economy is driven by machines it only makes sense to introduce some sort of basic income since the profit would be generated automatically anyway and there would be almost no work for the working class. And if the working class has no purchasing power then the whole system would collapse.
konr wrote: | The thing that we see that you didn't write is the context of this thread attached to the post. Please get a grip on that and understand if you don't mean something to come across some way, you better specify in the first place. | My bad.
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HitIer How do I cheat? Reputation: 22
Joined: 09 Feb 2013 Posts: 0 Location: Location Location Location
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone has my writing style on this forum holy shit.
_________________
With self driving cars, CE can work in real life
t328163 wrote: | Your username derives from the fact that this site cannot format special characters lol. |
t328163 wrote: |
lmfao, on reddit i'd get banned |
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Antagonist Cheater Reputation: 29
Joined: 24 Nov 2009 Posts: 48 Location: California
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Adnihil wrote: | Antagonist wrote: | Adnihil wrote: | to me an ideal system would be a system where education, healthcare, and public transport would be free. Ideally housing and essentials would be free too (there's more than enough empty houses and food and other resources going to waste in the name of profit) but that's tricky so instead there could be an unconditional basic income so nobody has to go without a house or essentials, and can afford some luxuries without having to work but still live within his/her means. |
terrible use of tax payers money. large array of people who do not benefit from those things. also not government job to pay for you to live. |
The people who don't 'benefit' from those things are the people who can afford it and still have more than enough money to spare. The point is to help out the people who can not afford these things.
I see where you're coming from with that it's not the governments job to fund your life but it is the governments job to ensure that its society is doing well, and poverty hurts everyone.
In a capitalist state, the working class generates profit for the rich and in turn gets paid a tiny fraction of what its labor is worth. But these jobs are being taken over by machines, and in a world where the economy is driven by machines it only makes sense to introduce some sort of basic income since the profit would be generated automatically anyway and there would be almost no work for the working class. And if the working class has no purchasing power then the whole system would collapse.
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Still terrible use of tax payers money. why should rich people pay taxes then if it doesn't benefit them? that is how the original idea of taxation was implemented after all. you do understand that that taxes in US originally was supposed to benefit everyone? i.e creating a military and funding construction of public roads for everyone to use. The fundamental premise the US based its governing policy was limited government because they believed that people could take care of their own shit, not have the government fuck with their lives besides protecting them.
Why is it fair or ethical or the right thing to do, to dictate someone else's hard earned money. No matter the abundance. Do you understand how immoral and unethical it is dictate other people's resources? I'm not sure how the idea stealing is registered as okay in your moral compass.
No, in a capitalist economy, a person becomes rich from profits. There are no proven evidence that links working class generating profits for the rich. That is a made up statement passed on as a fact. There is a clear direct link, however, that profits generates wealth for people through selling a product or service. In finance labor is classified as an EXPENSE.
Also, in the real world, if you are being replaced by robots, you probably want to invest time building a new skill lmao.
GG the logic and reasoning is unreal.
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tough guy talix wrote: | i've had it with your shit. fuck outta here |
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Alt How do I cheat? Reputation: 2
Joined: 19 Jan 2017 Posts: 4
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Adnihil wrote: | Antagonist wrote: | Adnihil wrote: | to me an ideal system would be a system where education, healthcare, and public transport would be free. Ideally housing and essentials would be free too (there's more than enough empty houses and food and other resources going to waste in the name of profit) but that's tricky so instead there could be an unconditional basic income so nobody has to go without a house or essentials, and can afford some luxuries without having to work but still live within his/her means. |
terrible use of tax payers money. large array of people who do not benefit from those things. also not government job to pay for you to live. |
The people who don't 'benefit' from those things are the people who can afford it and still have more than enough money to spare. The point is to help out the people who can not afford these things.
I see where you're coming from with that it's not the governments job to fund your life but it is the governments job to ensure that its society is doing well, and poverty hurts everyone.
In a capitalist state, the working class generates profit for the rich and in turn gets paid a tiny fraction of what its labor is worth. But these jobs are being taken over by machines, and in a world where the economy is driven by machines it only makes sense to introduce some sort of basic income since the profit would be generated automatically anyway and there would be almost no work for the working class. And if the working class has no purchasing power then the whole system would collapse.
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The role of government is not to hold the hands of it's citizens and provide for them. It is not the role of government to force the people to purchase certain products, nor is it the role of government to redistribute wealth. For instance, Obamacare is a travesty because it mandates that everyone must purchase healthcare or else they are hit with a penalty tax. Ultimately Obamacare is just another tax that steadily eats more and more of the middle class' paychecks. I very rarely go to the doctors, and when I do I'm able to foot the medical bills. I know how to talk to doctors to get the cheaper procedures done and I always ask them for a generic version of the name brand shit they try to push on to me. Why should I have to pay monthly for insurance when I can provide for myself? Why should I have to pay monthly for someone else's insurance, because they can't provide for themselves or talk to doctors so they don't have to pay outrageous prices? Why should I have to help foot the bill of boogie2988 at all, when he is an obese sack of shit whose health is so bad due to his own negligence? Why should there be a system in place that requires healthy, responsible people to pay for unhealthy, irresponsible people's medical bills? If that doesn't scream unfair to you then I'm not sure you have a clear picture of what is or isn't fair.
That's just health insurance. What about that wonderful basic income idea you're supporting? I went to college and busted my balls grinding through a STEM degree so that I could be economically viable. I knew what I was getting into, and proper planning combined with realistic expectations has me lined up for a $100k+ a year occupation using my abilities in mathematics. Why should I have to pay anything so that someone else can live off of my work? I busted my ass to develop the skills required to make a decent wage. Why am I now on the line to help those who didn't put in the work I have? We already know that welfare is being massively abused by people who are willing to live meager lifestyles without working. Providing even more incentives to drop out of the labor market will not help the nation. Automation won't kill labor any time soon. It might make some jobs redundant, but that's a risk that workers take when they take a job that doesn't require any real skills.
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clash of clans hacks Master Cheater Reputation: 63
Joined: 18 Jul 2007 Posts: 368 Location: Remember when we all used to put funny lines here?
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Even though you're obviously trolling I still want to reply, for the chance that there's a tiny part of you that actually thinks this way.
Quote: | why should rich people pay taxes then if it doesn't benefit them? |
It does benefit them, "i.e creating a military and funding construction of public roads for everyone to use."
Quote: | Why is it fair or ethical or the right thing to do, to dictate someone else's hard earned money. |
It's not hard earned if it's generated automatically. We also shouldn't forget that the working class needs money to be able to spend money on goods and services provided by the rich.
Quote: | No, in a capitalist economy, a person becomes rich from profits. There are no proven evidence that links working class generating profits for the rich. |
what
Companies make profit by paying their employees much less of what their labor is worth. Thus the working class generates profit for the rich. If this wasn't the case, employees would earn as much money as their boss, and their bosses wouldn't make profit, and it wouldn't be capitalism.
Quote: | Also, in the real world, if you are being replaced by robots, you probably want to invest time building a new skill lmao. |
You think people who are struggling to pay for rent and essentials have the money or time for education?
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Alt How do I cheat? Reputation: 2
Joined: 19 Jan 2017 Posts: 4
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | It's not hard earned if it's generated automatically. We also shouldn't forget that the working class needs money to be able to spend money on goods and services provided by the rich. |
Are you suggesting that if a person works their asses off to develop a company that can run autonomously, that they aren't entitled to the fruits of that labor? You take on huge amounts of risk and financial burden when you start a company. If it succeeds then you definitely deserve the profits it generates. However, not very many businesses ever actually wind up being autonomous. They almost always require a heavy level of oversight, so it's unlikely a business owner will ever actually be able to just stop working on developing their business if they wish to succeed.
Quote: | Companies make profit by paying their employees much less of what their labor is worth. Thus the working class generates profit for the rich. If this wasn't the case, employees would earn as much money as their boss, and their bosses wouldn't make profit, and it wouldn't be capitalism. |
Categorically false. Companies make profit by charging their clients what they believe their service is worth. Companies pay their employees based upon what they believe their labor is worth. Ultimately that payment is based upon voluntary contract between the employer and the employee. If someone is being abused in this situation then they have every legal right to cancel the contract they voluntarily entered into. If a person believes their labor is worth more than they are being compensated, then they should take that up with their employer, not the state.
Also, being the CEO of an organization is very difficult work. Tremendous responsibility rests on your shoulders and being paid more than your workers is only fair. My father owns his own mechanic shop and he is barely able to make ends meet. He supports three families off of that one shop and he barely takes home enough money to pay for his own family. What you and your ilk suggest would completely destroy his business by making the overhead far too expensive for his meager profits to sustain. That stress alone is enough to make most people give up, yet he has the stones required to handle it. Your arguments assume that these people are only exploiters that are abusing poor working families, but you types consistently forget that the CEOs themselves are working people too.
No business just magically works.
Quote: | You think people who are struggling to pay for rent and essentials have the money or time for education? |
I did. I come from a low income family that only had a house or land thanks to my parents' parents' parents. We survived off of less than $20,000 a year with 5 people in the household. That's a median income of $4,000 a year per person. I managed to make it through college and now I'll never have to worry about money again. 2 year universities and trade schools have amazing programs for people in poor situations, and there's always work to be found if a person is willing to change locations.
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