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Multiple Client Based MMORPGs
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how about it?
Bad idea
75%
 75%  [ 3 ]
Good idea
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
That would be Awesome!
25%
 25%  [ 1 ]
no clue
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 4

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gogodr
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:07 pm    Post subject: Multiple Client Based MMORPGs Reply with quote

I'm seriously thinking about working in this as my thesis.....

I mean there are lots of MMORPGs with crappy graphics Gameplay but High quality Graphics trailers.

thats because of the PC specs needed to play..

I'm thinking about making a system that sends same data but with different resolutions on everything

like Having a low specs client and a high specs client

any PC with a 2.4 Core 2 Duo, 2GB of RAM and 512MB Video card and at least 5GB of space would be enough to handle a high quality graphics MMORPG

that as min specs for the High specs Client
and then making the Low specs Client making it friendly for users like with single core, 1GB RAM, 128MB Video Card 1 GB space

that would be done by making models in low poly and resizing textures.


The thing would be just to make both Low specs and hi specs clients to send same data so low specs users can see user playing in the hi specs client but with the low graphics, and same for hi specs users.


Now the question is:

How would users take it? maybe they will feel kinda filtered and disgusted by it ? or they would take it like "Awesome"?
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Mi/c/healRein
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Multiple Client Based MMORPGs Reply with quote

gogodr wrote:


I mean there are lots of MMORPGs with crappy graphics Gameplay but High quality Graphics trailers.



That shit annoys me to no end.

But i think they would take it as "awesome"

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Flyte
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly you don't have the slightest fucking clue how graphic engines work.

Here is one example of what you have described: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mipmap
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gogodr
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what do you mean ?

is very simple what I'm saying

(more tris in the topology + Textures with better resolution ) slower to process than (Less Tris in topology + LQ textures)

because is less information to process <.<... thats all
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hcavolsdsadgadsg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would you need another client for this?


1. Your models should have various LODs already and your engine should take advantage of this.

2. For this matter, how do you handle scene culling? Having low poly models doesn't matter at all if you're drawing a million polys worth of shit that should be occluded.

3. Draw calls / state changes will probably rape you far harder than sheer polygon count will.

4. Your texture scaling idea is called mip mapping and your graphics API basically does all the work for you.
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gogodr
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because Low Poly models with normal maps in graphic engines runs fast and looks fair
but Hi Poly models with normal maps looks much better though is much heavier

the idea is have 2 clients so ppl with low specs PCs wouldnt need to have the data they are not going to use, like the hi poly models

same for the other client dont need to have the low poly models.

this idea i not only for the models but the particle systems, terrains, sound, and game footage (( in game videos ))

about the mip mapping thing
is like this
why to have 1GB of Hi detail textures to shrink them ? if you could have 300mb of LQ textures for direct use ?

Hi detail textures now days are textures of 1024 x 1024
LQ textures are 256 x 256


I dont find mip maping useful when wanting to make a faster client but to make the game smoother because of orientation

lets say you are in the Hi detail client using the 1024 textures
using mip map will be very usefull setting 1024 as max detail (( in complete zoom in ))
and using something much lower when its far so you can handle more objects in the enviroment.

in te low client the max detail would be 256
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hcavolsdsadgadsg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have no idea what you are doing or talking about
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gogodr
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how so?

I have still some years to work on this thesis, the main idea is about having 2 clients, simple like this .. uhmm..

Imagine a game and its update
game I is 1GB heavy and runs fast (( if you want an example )) k we are running in GTA III

and Game II like 7GB or more (( Ex:: GTA IV )) runs much slower than game I so we need a better PC

the main idea is to have them both interact in a Multiplayer enviroment so
Data like position and actions from the game II would be translated to data than can be procesed by game I so you would have both users playing Game I and Game II interact with each other while users in game I looks at users playing in GameII but with Game I graphics.

same for users playing game II will see users playing Game I by translating their data and looking at them with GameII graphics.

forget about doing the reduction of the data, thats not the point of this thread, I'm asking for oppinions about having ppl to choose between using both clients , so there is a client for ppl with low PC specs, and another one for ppl with hi PC specs.

it will be good to have that choose or will be taken bad ? like a way of filtering ppl and they would feel less because of that?
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hcavolsdsadgadsg
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no point to having 2 clients at all, all the low detail content should merely be part of the level of detail system that the engine is using and as such, easily switchable on the fly.
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gogodr
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but say again... what I'm offering there is an option:
having a low specs PC

download 14GB game with all the content or download a 5GB game with all the content I will use.


also LOD wont remake the topology of hi poly Models to low poly

and to avoid users having data they wont use I'm offering to make another client, one with the hi detail models and the other with the low poly models
instead of having to put both models in one client. also bump maps for Low polys and for hi polys are made different.
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hcavolsdsadgadsg
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a dumb idea, HD space is the least of your worries. All you're going to do is complicate the shit out of the art pipeline and make more work than needs to be done.

I think you have bigger problems if you're worried about HD space; if it's precomputed, it's going to take space... this can be the PVS generated for culling or lightmaps for whatever.


Your engine should handle the texture downsampling and model complexity on its own, on the fly. Why should people be limited between QUALITY and SHIT with no in-between? Not to mention doing otherwise is going to needlessly increase workload on whoever is handling art because you're creating 9 million assets that don't need to exist.

Why are you even bumpmapping low quality models if performance is an issue? This is shit that should all be customizable.

The amount of things to take into consideration with performance are staggering to say the least:

Tris are the least of your problems...
What if you aren't triangle bound? (Modern GPUs will eat MASSIVE amounts triangles for breakfast)
What if your performance is bound by the shader units?
What if your scene looks like shit but still runs like ass because you're draw calls are high and driver overhead is shitting on you?
What if overdraw is annihilating performance thanks to bad particle system design?
Hey, maybe you're bound by fill rate?

The list could go on forever...

What about other parts of the engine design?
- Does it stream data as needed or load once and be done?
- Are you massacring whatever you're trying to stream from?
- How does netcode work?
- Client prediction?
- ETC etc etc etc etc forever


Take note:
Doom 3 for example:
High quality:
http://www.scopemicrosoftm/Gamecenter/doom3.jpg
http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/469881_20040805_screen001.jpg

LOL HORRIBLE QUALITY:
http://www.firingsquad.com/media/galleries/doom_3_voodoo_2/07.jpg
http://www.firingsquad.com/media/galleries/doom_3_voodoo_2/23.jpg

Crysis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15SmGIgsrxw&fmt=18
watch as it goes from blurred shit to more realistic than real life.


TLDR; Splitting data for two clients is stupid. Waste of time.
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Burningmace
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVE Online sort of did this, but in a smarter way.

They allowed you to download the standard client, and the premium client. The premium client was about 1.3GB, whereas the standard was 600MB or so. Installing the premium client meant that you got full HD textures, bloom, everything like that. However, the only difference was that the premium client contained the new texture pack - you could click a button in-game when on the standard client and it'd download the premium texture pack and install it for you. The reason they did this was that in order to run the game in premium mode you needed a SM2 supporting card. So for older machines you could install a smaller, less pretty and less intensive version. For new machines you could install the big hefty secksy graphics one.

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gogodr
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slovach>> there is no point in arguing with you anymore , you just dont want to understand and are going offtopic.
THis thread is not about Graphics in games!.


Burningmace>>Eve Did resources reduction with that, I want to do kinda the same thing but without having to make the normal client users have to download the HQ resourses in the end but have a LQ option to interact with the HQ users.

like in other forum a guy said: it would be the same client with different art packs.
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hcavolsdsadgadsg
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to stimulate your brain here.

gogodr wrote:
Burningmace>>Eve Did resources reduction with that, I want to do kinda the same thing but without having to make the normal client users have to download the HQ resourses in the end but have a LQ option to interact with the HQ users.

like in other forum a guy said: it would be the same client with different art packs.


This is just another can of worms to worry about: with different content you have to be entirely sure everything plays the same. If something so much as a tiny piece of collision is different or something, who knows how someone can exploit it? Perhaps the lower quality models don't have something that the higher quality ones do, making visibility better. If there is a way to get an advantage, people are going to use it.


Have your art and engine scale to your lowest target. Why are you forcing shaders on machines that are supposed to be struggling to run your game? HEH SOMEONE IS RUNNING THE GAME LIKE SHIT, BETTER JUST DROP THE TRIANGLE COUNT AND OFF THEY GO! Maybe it's that simple, probably not. Hell, it doesn't even have to be the renderer that's murdering computers, it could be something you didn't even expect it to be.

Lets take the Quake 3 engine for example. One of the most famous engines of all time, filled with all sorts of trickery that will make you shit your pants. There's no doubt the renderer was pretty fast at the time, sure, it had to be.

Of course, years later with the release of the engine source, there were all kinds of surprises. Back then the client side prediction alone may have cost you a 100 fps. A couple years later, such a performance hit didn't even exist. Heck, it's a miracle the sound mixing alone didn't segfault. Of course, with the advent of faster hardware, stuff like this is becoming less and less of a worry for the time. Computers are quite the beast, hardware is never guaranteed to be the same, so who knows what kind of dumb problems can arise. Maybe it won't even be your fault, maybe it's a driver bug - such is development.


Why are you creating an entirely different art set? What happens when someone upgrades? Do they just have gigabytes of assets they will never see again? Who says your engine has to draw "pretty" things like grass, birds or butterflies or whatever bullshit when it's on 'low'? Part of clever design is the scalability. Luckily for you, this is something that could probably be taken advantage of being an MMO - of course this is reason for stupid design mistakes like stated above, but that's all part of the process.


For that matter, I'm not quite sure why you think you'll have the luxury to do this in the first place. Developing big titles is expensive beyond your comprehension, how you and your no-name squad plans to start out with gigantic mega-games is beyond me.

I don't know you're doing in this project, but you apparently have no idea on how to guide it or even plan it. Where's your documentation on the engine where everything is hopefully worked out as best as it could hope to be? What's the gameplay plan? A text document, flowgraph, anything? Do you have any idea what you're doing here? Such is the reality where you need to think things through, because even the smallest and most trivial of issues can become more than a ripple in the end and instead fuck your ass like a raging tsunami. Hopefully these are things that you're trying to figure out now.


Trying to work without a rough idea is much harder than it appears at first glance.



Am I wildly derailed by now? Pretty much, but it's food for thought. You'd be lucky if something can boil down to a simple 'yes / no' in such a field. Look at Blizzard, they shit money and have the most popular online game there is, yet they still can't figure out how to get anything working perfectly half a decade later.

If you want to split up your content like that, go ahead. I just hope you have a plan for it. If this is shit you don't care about, why are you in game development?
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gogodr
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

welll my best answer to your post would be this:

Thats why I planted this as my thesis idea. I'm currently finishing general studies in university going into informatics science. what I'm willing to present as thesis is the MMORPGs company I'm starting with some friends.
about users making exploits of the clients differences would be something to care about with exceptions, I'm not working in this system yet, its just an add to the pile of to do tasks.
The first thing that we did was to get sponsors for help and money, now there is going a debate on where to aim our games. Going for the better quality investing enough to buy a license of a powerful Engine but leaving behind users with Low specs PCs or using a fast and friendly Engine for most users, there is the debate because Users with powerful PCs are usually the ones that pay for games but making the game more accessible to users will make more users play the game and also there would be more chance of ppl paying.

and about we being no-names well, thats not something to really care about, we only have to care about making a god product for people.

anyways I'm done with this Topic, I got all the answers I needed from other forum already.
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